Here is what I came up with Zenthryi. The wisdom bonus is nice, but you lose out on Con and int mostly, and 2 feats. You also have to take 16 cleric pre epic, it harms your AB by 1, but you get better saves. Race: Human Zenthryi (BUR subrace) STR 14 -> 18 DEX 14 -> 18 CON 14 -> 14 WIS 14 -> 18 INT 14 -> 14 CHA 8 -> 8
Stats: All in DEX Feats: 1: Blooded, Bullheaded, Domain Death, Domain Healing 3: WF Sickle 6: Expertise 9: Dodge 12: Mobility 15: Spring attack 18: Weapon Finesse 21: G-Wis 1 24: G-Wis 2 27: Blind Fight 30: Toughness (You don't get +4 con, so this helps catch up) 33: ESF: Heal, Armor Skin 36: Great Strength 1, EWF: Sickle 39: Great Fort, Epic Prowess
Level 40 unmodified stats: STR 18 DEX 28 CON 14 WIS 20 INT 14 CHA 8 In LLs: take 2 str and 8 dex LL feats: LSA Tumble LSA Discipline LSF Heal LWF Sickle Great Strength 2 Epic Will Legendary Fort Level 60 stats: 22/36/14/14/20/8 Enjoy, Note: I didn't take LSF enchant, I don't really think it's that important, if you did want it, you would have to give up 2 str points.
Note: I didn't take LSF enchant, I don't really think it's that important [...]
I quite liked having it in LLs and find it's convenient to have available on Hells runs, but for most Hells parties these days it is unused as usually someone has +13 or better and casts it in addition to IoF. Kobra had a great suggestion of an alternative, which would be to read the Abjuration book then take LSF Abjuration or a different feat (e.g. Great Strength), which would let the new Energy Immunity (6) spell give 50% or 75% to any one element. That's probably more valuable for long time Hells runners.
For Zeny builds, I think HawkeZ's looks really nice as a version of this build. With all regular Pit Fiend attacks being covered with a 42 strength, maybe even thinking about pushing two of those points into CON or using a different artifact. For other races, I think Undying would work though not quite as nice as Koly. Half-Guardinal and Wemic certainly look nice but as Half-Elves they wouldn't be able to max both Tumble and Discipline. For the Zeny version with 2 less INT I imagine you'd drop craft weapon and take the hit on a few Craft Armor points?
One of the really interesting (in my mind) things about threaders is how many ways there are one can make them. Cleric/WM splits of 30/10, 26/14, or 20/20; Dex, Str, Hybrid Dexer, Hybrid Strer, Wis, Con; defense vs. offense; healing vs. damage; etc. For the Hells I've liked the hybrid dexer best of the three types I've tried (str, dex, hybrid dex), but there's certainly room for other types. What I've not tried is one of the 30/10 or 26/14 (or other splits).
Edit: a note on Strength. Kobra's suggested build ends with a 34 strength (in gear, before demi or artifact). HawkeZ's adjustment pushes it to 38. The Koly build I used is 36 assuming you went the true hybrid route. I did my first trip down with a 32 strength, the next set as single demi with a 34 strength, and went down through Min as a double demi with 36 strength. That trip convinced me that 48 dex (double demi) was plenty and I'd be better off with a higher strength (it involved too many Kyton trips for my taste). If you have a great bard on every run and if you stay within their radius, then it won't really matter. But when you have a bard who is less proactive with UUU or find the fight spread out such that you're not in his radius, then the strength is a lot more important. I found myself too often either without an effective bard or outside their radius (or sometimes tanking something hitting the KD'd bard, using my threading to keep them alive) -- eventually I'd get knocked down and then killed. Since this caused me, the player, a great deal of frustration, I decided the KD protection was worth it. Since I managed two successful demigod trips with a 32 and 34 strength, it is also apparent that it isn't necessary.
My AC estimates are, assuming a 48 dex using base 3 light armor.
Caveats: If your build ends at 48 dex after double demi, then these will be too high until then. If Hells penalties plus equipment push you under 80 Craft Armor, then the +song column will be one too high.
+Asmo or Strongheart
+Asmo and Strongheart
I prefer Swamp Devil Hide to Nature's Embanking Palisade, though it costs me one AC. I also use a Tia amulet for the spell slots which costs me another AC compared to a BUR amulet. Lastly I'm using the Asmo boots which are Dodge instead of Deflection, so no AC bonus. That's why my screenshot shows 138 AC buffed (which I can bump to 143 when needed using Expertise). The earlier screenshot was 143 since it was using an Asmo item plus all BURs with Girding and song. While your needs may differ, I think Strongheart on this character isn't nearly as useful as on many others (it's a godsend for strength monks).
I also like to shoot for gear before I start a toon to make sure I am at my best at level 40, here is what I came up with. Feel free to make any suggestions, this gear setup maxes all stats while keeping discipline up. Full UR gear setup (Start Hells With These):
Weapon: DB Sickle Armor: Hide of Adoril Arcanscape Shield: Shield of Vandalar Head: Machination Cloak: Parsons Preserver Boots: Aasgart's Aversion Amulet: Lich Kings Phylactery Gloves: Legendary Bracers of Resilience Belt: Divinity's Beckons
Loggin: Anastasoulis_Dreams - CAN'T LOGGIN! FORGET MY PASSWORD URG!
Updated my version (zeny) with 2 more con and 2 less str. Same str as Yomis build and only missing 2 con.
Edit: Also now, with the extra con will have little need for toughness so replaced toughness with improved expertise for an extra 5 ac. After all, gotta stay alive and heal party members and 10 ac will make a difference
Well you can add Salamander to the list. I had a extra Salamander race book laying around plus a retired 60 level cleric toon. I liked using my Hybrid BDD str tank to resist the STR and DEX challenges of the hell levels. So I reincarnated this into your hybrid Threader build because it's the most logical direction.
Dwarves (can speak Dwarven) - ability adjustments: +2 Con, -2 Cha - All dwarves receive the Bullheaded feat for free, which allows them to acquire Legendary Skill Affinity Discipline.
to get the max stat increase as I could get I started out with all 14 except with CHR. As I leveled I went all Dex all the way to level 60 and after lvl 20 took great WIS feats 6 times. i took the INT arti at lvl 55 to avoid confusiion and dominate things. The changes to the build I was able t add hardiness and blinding speed so I can zoom around the map just a little bet faster especially with FoM spell. Plan to just watch other peoples HP's and if someone is taking damage I'll zoom over there and fight next to them .
Stats: All in DEX except 16 and 20 where you put points into Wisdom.
Feats: 1: Blooded, Bullheaded, Domain Death, Domain Healing 3: WF Sickle 6: Expertise 9: Spring Attack 12: Whirlwind Attack 13: Weapon of Choice: Sickle 15: Weapon Finesse 18: Blind Fight 21: Great STR 1 24: Great STR 2 27: Great STR 3 30: Great STR 4 33: Great STR 5, Armor Skin 36: Great DEX 1, EWF: Sickle 39: ESF: Heal, Epic Prowess
Level 40 unmodified stats: STR 19 DEX 27 CON 18 WIS 20 INT 14 CHA 8
41 read Enchant Book for gmw +13 incase no one has better.
LL feats: LSA Tumble LSA Discipline LSF Heal LWF Sickle Epic Will Great Fortitude Legendary Fort
In LL's, put 5 points in DEX, then 5 in STR. If you prefer a little better AC/AB when starting you can choose 9 DEX and 1 STR then reincarnate with the higher STR after demi or double demi. With the 5/5 route you will end double demi with 48 DEX and 40 STR, which will max out your AC using base 3 light armor and make you much harder to KD.
Skills pre-LL: Intimidate - 4 points at level 9 or so (required for WM) Heal - Max at all levels (will end with 43) Discipline - Max on all WM levels (will end at 43) Concentration - Put about 20 points in this (I did 33, that's more than enough)
Skills in LL: Heal - Max Tumble - Max through level 57 after taking LSA Tumble Discipline - Max after taking LSA Discipline Parry - Max Craft Weapon or Craft Armor- anything left over
Having designed and played my own Zeny version of this up to 50 now (and really looking forward to getting him in to the Hells), I thought of a few things that could be updated here.
First, the Myconids sickle should be highly considered when outfitting your Threader, both in the LL's, and even in the Hells. The additional spell slots are likely worth a few extra points of damage, IMHO. And if you wanted to be really fancy, you could wait until you'd lost all of the spell slots granted by the sickle, and then throw on a DB, Dis, or the Phleg one.
Second, I would recommend maxing Concentration, rather than putting the points in to Craft Weapon. With the advent of the Pits of Moliation, Elysium, and Aboleths, plus Superior and Elite Nupperibo's, you would do very well to have a maxed Concentration skill. It will help you keep threading by not being "disabled" by one of these checks.
Lastly, if you could, I'd like to hear about the buffs you consider worthwhile. I know we talked about it on XFire a few weeks back, but it might be nice to include that in your excellent original post of this thread.
Ok, REALLY lastly, just wanted to say this is an amazing build, and that you did an even more amazing job of laying out not only the build, but the considerations you took, as well as choices players who are making their own Threader can take in to account. Thanks for the excellent write-up.
As far as buffs go... on my threader, I don't use very many, preferring to have my high AC keep me safe. There are a few though, and displacements are nice, if you can get them. I used the abjuration tome on mine, and if you do that, you should definitely slot energy immunities for your sixth level slots, otherwise, greater sanctuaries. I generally use Freedom of Movement for the speed increase, as positioning is quite important. Aside from that, healing circles for the regeneration aura are nice, but I don't use them often. The other one to use, though not technically a buff, are lesser restorations, since they're a swift action and you don't need to stop doing whatever you're doing to use it. I also prepare darkfires in my third level slots, since even with 40 cleric levels they deal maximum damage. I also keep remove fears in my first level slots, I rarely use them, but they're nice to have just in case.
Mastigo, the Myco sickle, does look nice. I think pre-Tiamat gear it's a very good idea. It'll hurt the sickle output a bit, but make your life a lot easier with threading and the 8 extra rounds of threading will help make up some of that damage. The Amulet of Hadean Power from Pit may also be worth considering.
One thing I really like about playing the character is that it makes most stat and skill checks even in the new areas. This makes it a joy to play in Pit, Elysium, Rona, etc. It works quite well in Aboleths barring the Oozes that need quick stoning. It's not perfect and won't make every check of course, but it's awfully well rounded.
For concentration I'll need to go through logs for the wiki page so I can capture more data. You have a point that the concentration checks are more common now but the AB also needs some help when it can. I put 33 points in Takasi (I recommend 20 in the build post), and the CON modifier raises that another 10-12. Caster gear typically has concentration bonuses, so unless you're doing deep hells runs as a single demi you'll have a quite high concentration score in my experience. Mine is at 95 after bardsong, and I lowered the suggested amount to 20 which would still make it 80+. There are still Hells penalties to consider (-12 in Malbolge non-demi, -20 single demi). Some of the checks:
Hells: Inchoate Baatorian DC 40, Brachina Seductrices DC 40+ Pit: DC 50 vs. Arcanaloth Aboleths: DC 60 vs. Witchlight, DC 60 vs. Mu Spore Elysium: DC 60+ vs. Elysium Thrush, DC 60 vs. Prismatic Golem, DC 60 vs. Pelor
The Thrushes are the highest checks I've seen, reaching up to DC 90, though usually in the 60-70 range. Even with only 20 points in concentration, by the time you're going to Ely you should almost never fail those. I would be surprised if you were failing checks to Para Nupps even with only 20 points in Concentration. Maxing it seems excessive at this time, though if you're worried about it you could take some (e.g. 14) points from Craft Weapon and put it into Concentration.
As for buffs, Kobra is pretty similar to what I do, though I did Enchant rather than Abjuration. I do a GMW and DF on myself before the run and check every now and then that it's still on. FoM and Endure Elements are the buffs I cast during the run unless there's a need for UEF. I use the Asmo boots so will typically active Epic Warding from them. A lot of the typical cleric buffs just aren't effective enough to do in Hells+ areas. For example, Battletide is spiffy for the desert but will touch almost nothing in the Hells. It's possible you may find Corona of Cold useful for 13% cold immunity but tanks with damage shields can be problematic sometimes.
My spells (which would be a bit different from those chosen if you were doing LL runs, and others may have different choices): 9: UEF 8: Earthquake mixed with Mass Heal 7: Ressurection 6: GS 5: a few Battletides and rest Healing Circle 4: 2 FoM, rest GMW (+14) 3: 1 Remove Disease, 3 Corona of Cold, rest DF 2: 3 Aid, rest Darkness 1: 3 Endure Elements, 3 Entropic Shield, rest Remove Fear
EQ is useful in a few areas in Pit, not much use elsewhere. I mixed the Mass Heals and have that on my quickbar so I get an indication of how many spells are left. For level 7 I could see Mass Restoration as an interesting choice but for a few reasons I don't. Quick rezzes are handy so I chose it. Like Kobra, Healing Circle is handy but won't usually make a big difference so it's up to you when you want that little extra. I've done Battletide sometimes on runs with no cleric, though it's very questionable in effectiveness due to very low spell penetration. Remove Disease won't remove the nasty stuff but it's handy for places like Pit where at least it will tell you when you cast it whether you are diseased. I have probably only cast Corona 3-4 times total, but no harm in having it there. Aid is nice for the little bonus hit points, and Darkness is obviously for Ely. Entropic Shield is only 40% conceal vs. ranged attacks only but sometimes I don't have any other conceal (e.g. Pit runs when there are gougers all around).
The only buffs I use on my Threader (when I remember them) is FoM and occassionally a Aid or Endure Elements...the latter two mainly "fit in" while others are casting buffs. lol
As for the Mastigo I tent to agree with Yomi...a Dis (or even DB) sickle is a better option for damage...at least with my play style. I rarely finish off my level 8 spell slots when I rest so the two from the Mastigo would rarely be used. With my current gear setup I have 38 level 8 AND 9 spell slots. I use them exclusively for threading (though I have at times used EQ's in Aboleth's) while in Hell. For most maps I could get by without resting though if the Druid rests i usually will rest...especially if I lose Shunt as KB is the biggest worry my Threader has.