Flying Fists (25 Monk / 10 CoT / 5 HS)

[Yomi]

Last year I was thinking about doing a monk build and saw Sabre's Morphed Fists in a guild competition doing quite well. I built it using Erinyes since that was all I had at the time, but still think Erinyes is a great race for this. It can be done with Zenythri with small modifications as well, and I'm sure it could be adapted to other races. I got my old toon demi last weekend and decided to see how I'd rebuild it using all the new server changes that have happened over the last year. I believe this definitely improves the result.

The advantages of the build are good defense through very high AC and Self Conceal 5, monk immunities (poison, fear, mind effects, disease), monk speed, good AB and Listen, and lots of attacks (10 with flurry and Harper boots). The main disadvantage is that you are definitely a dexer so will fail STR checks in the Hells (use ranged attacks or rely on UUU from a bard).


Elia after single demi, using Asmo Helm and BUR robes and amulet, bardsong as only buff, no stat artifact, no girding. Note that the sheet lies about saves due to CoT levels (they show 5 higher than they really are).


Race: Halfling Erinyes (BUR subrace)
STR: 10 -> 8 (halfling)
DEX: 16 -> 18 (halfling) -> 24
CON: 14 -> 16
WIS: 14 -> 18
INT: 14
CHA: 8 -> 6

All stat points into DEX.

Level progression: 10 Monk, 4 CoT, 6 Monk, 6 CoT, 4 Monk, 5 HS, 5 Monk.

Erinyes gives you a number of Bow related feats that will let you get a 94 AB using a longbow plus free Rapid Shot. You can't use the AA bows so will do more damage with your fists, but it's nice to be able to have a very effective ranged damage (I recommend the Ssithrak Daikyu for its +16 bonus.

Pre-Epic Feats:
1: Strong Soul
3: Weapon Finesse
6: Weapon Focus: Kama (this is to qualify for CoT)
9: Toughness
12: Iron Will, Improved Critical: Unarmed [CoT bonus feat]
14: Weapon Focus: Unarmed [CoT bonus feat]
15: Blind Fight
18: Alertness (this is to qualify for Harper Scout)

Epic Feats:
21: Great Dexterity 1
22: Epic Weapon Focus: Unarmed [CoT bonus feat]
24: Great Dexterity 2, Armor Skin [CoT bonus feat]
26: Epic Prowess [CoT bonus feat]
27: Great Dexterity 3
30: Self Conceal 1
31: Great Dexterity 4 [HS bonus feat]
33: Self Conceal 2
35: Great Dexterity 5 [HS bonus feat]
36: Self Conceal 3
39: Self Conceal 4
40: Self Conceal 5 [Monk bonus feat]

Naked stats at 40: STR 8, DEX 39, CON 16, WIS 18, INT 14, CHA 6.

Legendary Feats (take in any order):
42: Great Dexterity 6
45: Great Dexterity 7
48: Great Dexterity 8
51: Great Dexterity 9
54: Great Dexterity 10
57: Legendary Weapon Focus: Unarmed
60: Legendary Strong Soul

Naked stats at 60: STR 8, DEX 54, CON 16, WIS 18, INT 14, CHA 6.
AB: 96, 93, 90, 87, 84, 81, 96 (with full +20 bonus, no flurry/HS)
AB: 94, 91, 88, 85, 81, 79, 94, 89, 84, 79 (Flurry, HS boots)
Saves: 65 Fort, 78 Reflex, 65 Will
HP: 970
AC: 134 using UR/Illithid gear and no song to boost Craft Armor, 137 pre-demi using BURs, up to 147 with double demi. You also have permanent 50% conceal, and can activate Empty Body for 65% if desired.

Skill Points: Max Discipline, Parry, and Tumble at all levels. At level 27, your first epic monk level, put 30 points into Hide, 6 in Lore, 8 in Persuade, and 4 cross-class into Search. These are needed to qualify for Harper Scout. At level 36 you can start maximizing Craft Armor. In LL's you'll continue putting points into Tumble into level 57. At all LLs maximize Discipline, Listen, and Parry. Put leftover points near the end into Craft Armor (you'll end up putting 14 points in).


Some considerations

• Getting the Dis gloves is a big help for the extra 10% physical as well as the great damage.
  
• Since you're a halfling, you could skip Strong Soul and take Legendary Luck instead. This would leave you with 62 for your will and fort saves which is high enough. But there really isn't anything to spend the pre-epic feat on in return.
  
• Similarly one could choose to drop Blind Fight, as you will end up with a very high Listen score. But again, there isn't anything to spend it on.
  
• If you plan on using the Ruby Rod, then you could in theory drop the Parry skill.
  
• If you put points into Hide instead of Listen, Parry, or Craft Armor, you could get a slightly higher conceal (vs. SC5) from a Druid's Mass Camo (though your Empty Body will still be higher). It wouldn't be a huge loss to put 33 more points into hide (maximizing it) and drop Craft Armor to only 27. It will drop your AC by one point but the build can afford it. Given that you have permanent 50% conceal I didn't think it was worth it.
  
• Make sure you get C/C from a bard or mage when possible to maximize your Listen skill. This will help cut through conceal, which is excellent given your good AB and many attacks/round.
  
• With a 20 STR assuming your equipment maximizes it, stay away from STR KD mobs unless you have UUU available. You will fail the checks against Pit Fiends.
  
• I recommend the Torch of the Unwary if you have it and can fit it in. The extra sneak attack damage will help in the Hells.
  
• Since you really can't stand up to Pit Fiends, use a bow (or a Crossbow if you must) and shoot them. This is quite workable, though will cause your damage output to be lower. I quickslot my bow and my flag, which lets me quickly switch between the two. If you have a good caster bard and a fast-killing party you can just hit the PFs while making sure you're inside the UUU radius.
  

If you look at the damage per hit, you might think the toon isn't that impressive, especially if you're used to a high critting tank. The sheer number of hits makes up for it, and loggers will show that this build can beat many other tanks for damage output.


If you want to build this using Zenythri, I might suggest Human as the base race, then 8 str, 16 dex, 16 con, 14 wis, 12 int, 8 cha for base stats. Switch the Improved Critical Feat to Blind Fight and take Dodge at level 15 (unless you can think of a better feat). Everything else unchanged. You could also consider using Elf as the base, which will raise DEX by 2 and drop CON, then drop one of the skills. With Zenythri you could consider working out a more universal dex monk however (Yue is working on a 30 Monk / 5 Ranger / 5 HS build that looks very promising).

[simpetar]

sti15 said:

Since you really can't stand up to Pit Fiends, use a bow (or a Crossbow if you must) and shoot them.

Wouldn´t shurikens be a better choice? They should be considered monk weapon, so you still get that huge number of attacks (including +1 Furry of Blows when it is implemented) and the damage types on the UR version www.hgwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Satchel_of_Neverending_Monk%27s_Mantras seem rather nice.

[HFactor]

wow, +100 on the first strike and 143 ac, awesome

I came across one of those infinate monks mantras on the Myco run we did and debated taking it as I never thought I'd use it.

[the1kobra]

Could you please censor your character's portrait? I'm sure that there will be someone on these forums that will think it is offensive, and complain about it. (Other than me) These are after all, as Funky puts it: Family friendly forums, heaven help us if an 8 or 10 year old takes a look at that.

[HFactor]

the1kobra said:

Could you please censor your character's portrait? I'm sure that there will be someone on these forums that will think it is offensive, and complain about it. (Other than me) These are after all, as Funky puts it: Family friendly forums, heaven help us if an 8 or 10 year old takes a look at that.

If that has to be censored then an 8-10 year old can never look at a swimsuit again.

[calad]

Don't be upset Kobra, I'll personally look into finding you some half naked kobold portrates just for you.

[Yomi]

Have you seen what an in-game Erinyes looks like? The portrait is quite a bit tamer than that (and I thought fit the image of a mostly-naked monk with wings, which is what she looks like in-game, fairly well). The image is from the GPT-v2, by the way (the GPT is purposely not filtered for content, so this is merely information, not a reflection on its appropriateness).


Anyhoo.... how does this compare to other monks? Compared to Str monk it's played differently -- where a Str monk is dealing with low AC and trying to get high conceal maintained, this dex monk has a much higher AC and Self Conceal 5, so going to get hit much less in general (after demi a str monk can get high enough AC that this is much less of a difference, though they're still worrying about conceal). This is a pure dexer, whereas most str monks have a high enough dex to make them really only concerned about Malebranches and para Malebs, and even then they can save half the time. The Str monk may have fewer attacks depending on the build (Groo's Dim Mak Master has the same number, pure monks would have 3 fewer), but each attack will do more physical damage. Compared to Mish's universal Zeny, there's about 2 (bonus from monk levels) + 6 (specialization / epic specialization) + 6 (str bonus) less physical damage per hit, with the tradeoff being Self Conceal 5 and a bit higher AC and AB.

It's not the best monk build, but it does show an interesting class combo (thanks to Sabre), is built with a race not normally thought of as a fist monk type, and is proven to work quite effectively -- with a bit less AB and AC and no Listen, I got demi while having a lot of fun playing (and never visited Limbo on the way either). She was second from the top in damage dealt and tank kills on both Nessus runs (I'm including the one which quit at the half-way point because of time constraints), though I have no doubt a Str monk like Bognus would outdamage her while offering the party many of the same benefits.

As for Shuriken vs. bow, I'll have to test it. My str monk uses the shurikens, though for him it's mainly to get somethings attention, to hit unreachable mobs, or hitting unreachable breakable objects.

[the1kobra]

calad said:

Don't be upset Kobra, I'll personally look into finding you some half naked kobold portrates just for you.

Not interested.

sti15 said:

Have you seen what an in-game Erinyes looks like?

Yes, I have, and you may notice I get quite a bit upset when seeing players play them.

sti15 said:

The portrait is quite a bit tamer than that (and I thought fit the image of a mostly-naked monk with wings, which is what she looks like in-game, fairly well).

I don't see anyone posting pictures erinyes up on the forums, and I really don't think the portrait is appropriate for a place where ANYONE can come and take a look. It might be harder for someone to come across an erinyes character in the game, but these are public building forums, that means you might even have 7 year olds frequenting these forums looking for effective character builds. Do you really want them seeing that picture?

[bort]

I don't see anything in that picture a newborn baby won't have seen before...

[Raj]

nwn is rated as a 12+ years old game. if there're younger guys playing it it's their fault.

I'd like you ( kins ) to link me where to find your toons portraits as well plz.

I'd take fighter over cot anyway, but guess you're doing so in order to avoid xp penality?

[Yomi]

therajah said:

nwn is rated as a 12+ years old game. if there're younger guys playing it it's their fault.

To be fair we try to be family and young-player friendly outside of party and in the forums, especially in regard to language. I'll run the image by my 8 year old, but I suspect he'd just wonder why I want him to look at it. If needed I can insert some nice Tyr-frog eyeballs to draw attention to cover up any sections which might cause offense.

I'd like you ( kins ) to link me where to find your toons portraits as well plz.

It's in the Giant Portrait Thingy package acaos compiled. I'd recommend the alternate download if you have a fast connection as it is much faster (it's 400MB). Mish has been using a number of these portraits on his new builds as well.

I'd take fighter over cot anyway, but guess you're doing so in order to avoid xp penality?

A good idea. CoT avoids the xp penalty and increases the reflex save (which makes next to no difference). Fighter however gives you two extra pre-epic feats (you no longer need Weapon Focus: Kama), including Weapon Specialization which is actually useful. Fitting in Epic Weapon Specialization is a bit more difficult but might be able to be done in place of Armor Skin (2 AC) or Epic Prowess (2 AB) to get the extra 4 physical damage per hit. Or drop two Great Dex feats and split the difference and give you an extra legendary feat to spend on something.

[thirddeep]

Let me add my 0.02 pence quick.

I am a father with an 8 year old son that play with me on HG.

As a parent,

a) I do not have a problem with that picture.
b) I take full responsibility of what my son does on the computer at any one time.

I am not taking a punch at you kobra, but really parents should take responsibility and know that there are things on the internet that they might not agree with.

For example, I try to teach my son there is no such thing as swear words, and he is welcome to use any word so long as he puts in the correct context and he understands it's meaning.

At the end of the the day, its a pair of breasts (nice once also if I may say). At my sons school, they are already starting to teach about simple human anatomy.

Thd.

[Yomi]

Here is a modification that uses Thri-Kreen which is an easier race to obtain. Because TK is Human base, I switched to Fighter instead of CoT which enables taking the Weapon Specialization and Epic Weapon Specialization feats, boosting damage output for no cost. Saves are very good. AC will be 4 less than the Erinyes version (still can get in the 140s), AB 3 less, HP 60 less due to lower CON. Skills are identical.

Race: Human Thri-Kreen (Secret subrace)
STR: 10
DEX: 16 -> 18
CON: 14
WIS: 14 -> 16
INT: 14 -> 12
CHA: 8 -> 6

All stat points into DEX.

Level progression: 10 Monk, 4 Fighter, 6 Monk, 6 Fighter, 4 Monk, 5 HS, 5 Monk.

Pre-Epic Feats:
1: Strong Soul, Luck of Heros [Human bonus feat]
3: Weapon Finesse
6: Toughness
9: Dodge
11: Improved Critical: Unarmed [Fighter bonus feat]
12: Iron Will, Weapon Focus: Unarmed [Fighter bonus feat]
14: Weapon Specialization: Unarmed [Fighter bonus feat]
15: Blind Fight
18: Great Fortitude

Epic Feats:
21: Great Dexterity 1
22: Epic Weapon Focus: Unarmed [Fighter bonus feat]
24: Great Dexterity 2, Epic Prowess [Fighter bonus feat]
26: Epic Weapon Specialization: Unarmed [Fighter bonus feat]
27: Great Dexterity 3
30: Great Dexterity 4
31: Great Dexterity 5 [HS bonus feat]
33: Self Conceal 1
35: Great Dexterity 6 [HS bonus feat]
36: Self Conceal 2
39: Self Conceal 3
40: Self Conceal 4 [Monk bonus feat]

Naked stats at 40: STR 10, DEX 34, CON 14, WIS 16, INT 12, CHA 6.

Legendary Feats:
42: Self Conceal 5
45: Great Dexterity 7
48: Great Dexterity 8
51: Great Dexterity 9
54: Great Dexterity 10
57: Legendary Weapon Focus: Unarmed
60: Legendary Strong Soul

Naked stats at 60: STR 10, DEX 48, CON 14, WIS 16, INT 12, CHA 6.
AB: 93, 90, 87, 84, 81, 78, 93 (with full +20 bonus, no flurry/HS)
AB: 91, 88, 85, 82, 79, 76, 91, 86, 81, 76 (Flurry, HS boots)
Saves: 66 Fort, 72 Reflex, 64 Will
HP: 910
AC: 130 using UR/Illithid gear and no song to boost Craft Armor, 133 pre-demi using BURs, up to 143 with double demi and full buffs. You also have permanent 50% conceal, and can activate Empty Body for 65% if desired.

Skill Points: Max Discipline, Parry, and Tumble at all levels. At level 27, your first epic monk level, put 30 points into Hide, 6 in Lore, 8 in Persuade, and 4 cross-class into Search. These are needed to qualify for Harper Scout. At level 36 you can start maximizing Craft Armor. In LL's you'll continue putting points into Tumble into level 57. At all LLs maximize Discipline, Listen, and Parry. Put leftover points near the end into Craft Armor (you'll end up putting 14 points in).


Some considerations

• Getting the Dis gloves is a big help for the extra 10% physical as well as the great damage.
  
• The pre-epic feats Luck of Heroes, Dodge, and Great Fortitude add very little to the build. However there just isn't anything else to spend the points on, and each of those feats at least adds a little.
  
• To sacrifice some offense for a little more survivability, you could drop STR and INT by 2 each and start with 2 higher CON, then drop the Listen skill. This will give you 60 more hit points, but drop your damage output. It's worth consideration if you're a newer player.
  
• Make sure you get C/C from a bard, mage, or cleric when possible to maximize your Listen skill. This will help cut through conceal, which is excellent given your good AB and many attacks/round.
  
• With your low STR, stay away from STR KD mobs unless you have UUU available. You will fail the checks against Pit Fiends.
  
• I recommend the Torch of the Unwary if you have it and can fit it in. The extra sneak attack damage will help in the Hells.
  
• Since you really can't stand up to Pit Fiends, use a ranged weapon such as the Monk's Mantras. This is quite workable, though will cause your damage output to be lower. If you have a good caster bard and a fast-killing party you can just hit the PFs while making sure you're inside the UUU radius.
  

If you look at the damage per hit, you might think the toon isn't that impressive, especially if you're used to a high critting tank. The sheer number of hits makes up for it, and loggers will show that this build can beat many other tanks for damage output.

[uncanny]

Wondering how this would work out with Zeny.. understandably Erinyes is likely the best possible fit, just trying to think of how I'd fit this in with what I have

[Yomi]

If you're using Zeny, take a look at Dim Mak Acolyte. The damage will be a little higher due to Zeny's free Weapon Spec and Epic Weapon Spec (6 more damage on every hit). You also will have a higher strength for even more damage output as well as decent strength KD protection. BTW, you can do the DMA build with Human or Gnome rather than Elf if desired.

AC with Mish's DMA should be perfectly acceptable, though the Erinyes Flying Fists can go higher. One difference is that you will need to rely on active conceal -- be it mass camo, displacement, druid epic, or using your Empty Body. To be honest given the choice of 144 AC and mostly KD immune, vs. 148 AC as a pure dexer, I'd choose the former every time. Both have AC's that are very high (130s) as a pre-demi and crazy high (140s) as demis.

I love the FF build and got her double demi. The defense is outstanding, and the offense in the Hells will shock a lot of people who thought their tanks were the bee's knees. But if you have Zenythri, then the DMA build will give you more damage output and quite a bit of STR KD immunity, all without sacrificing much in defense. How important the KD bit is to you falls on your bard. Get a great bard in a good party and it's completely irrelevent. Get a decent bard and every now and then you might get KD'd or have to shoot stuff from a distance. Get a cruddy bard on a hard layer and it'll drive you crazy (*tries to purge memories of a truly hellish Cania run*).