The Bearded Baritone (Bard24/DwD 16)

[SallerAseph]

DISCLAIMER:
This is a build in progress. I do not know what the AB, AC or saves will be like, or if the build is viable at all. Currently I do not have access to NWN to check it out in the test chamber.

So why make a warchanter ? From what I hear they can't tank as well as a tank (in terms of damage), and they can't sing as well as a bard, but they do look cool on paper, and also seem to me to be slightly more fun to play than a pure tank.
Also, from playing my DD tank I found myself missing the ability to buff myself, which this quasi can do..

The build
Dwarven Salamander, Neutral Good
starting points (after subrace)

STR 14 (20)
DEX 10 (12)
CON 16 (16)
INT 12 (14)
WIS 8 (8)
CHA 16 (16)

All ability increases go into strength.

Lvl progression: 10 levels bard, 16 levels DwD, then the remaining 14 levels bard.

Feats:
1 : Artist
3 : Curse Song
6 : Extra Music
12: Weapon Focus Heavy Flail
15: Improved Critical Heavy Flail
18: Greater Weapon Focus Heavy Flail
21: Epic Weapon Focus heavy Flail
24: Epic Prowess (DwD bonus feat)
25: Great Strength I
27: Lingering song
30: Great Strength II
33: Great Strength III
36: Great Strength IV
39: Lasting Inspiration (Bard bonus feat)

Legendary Feats:

• Legendary Weapon Focus Heavy Flail
  
• Great Strength V - VIII
  
• Legendary Spell Focus Illusion
  
• Epic skill Focus Perform / Epic save feat / power Critical Heavy Flail (what ever you fancy most)
  

Read Illusion Book for more conceal

Skills:
Need some help here, was thinking of maxing out:
Discipline, Listen, Tumble, Perform, Parry. If any points left, I would put them into UMD. Also it seems like I need 5 Hide and I would also like some Taunt if possible. I havent got a clue what to prioritize though.

Spells:
I need some help here as well with what spells to take.
Suggestion:
1: Expeditious Retreat, Joyful Noise, Mage Armor, Amplify, Balagorn's Iron Horn
2: Endure Elements, Deafening Clang, Ghostly Visage, Clarity, Sound Burst
3: Displacement, Keen Edge, Haste, Wounding Whispers, Greater Magic Weapon
4: War Cry, Hold Monster, Neutralize Poison, free choices ?
5: Improved Heroism, Ethereal Visage, free choices ?
6: Dirge, Mass Haste, free choices ?

Pros:
Should be a sturdy tank with decent AC, good conceal and a heavy armor + shield. Has the ability to buff itself, gives itself 6 attacks per round, and can bring back 3 people from limbo.
Bard song should be at level 54.

Cons:
Most of your buffs and special abilities would likely already be given to the group by existing bards or clerics (and they are better at it).

I guess I need some help with this: Is there anybody out there that can give me some pointers if this is viable at all and also what the AB, AC and saves would look like at lvl 60 with +12 gear or +14 gear and no demi iterations, and no arti ?
Also: any pointers on the build, the skills and the spells chosen would be very appreciated as this is my first rendevouz with the bard class

Best regards Samir

[Yojimbo]

First if you are going with Heavy Flail you can't have a shield as that is a large weapon and you will be medium sized.

Skills
#1 Perform even though your not a true Bard I think it is still very important I would think.
#2 Discipline if your a tank you must have Discipline
#3 Tumble if you don't have a shield this is last bet for workable AC but you will mostly rely on concealment so its debatable
#4 Listen or Parry I can't say which is better for a build like this as one is nice defensive bonus the other is great help to offense.
#5 Taunt is a good investment for Bards so WC can make use but I'm not sure it will be worth it
#6 Why do you need Hide and why 5 points of it?

[BigStick]

I don't think you can get "good conceal and a heavy armor + shield". Perhaps with light armor and wielding the heavy flail two-handed?

Displacement (grants EV conceal in light armor or robes; no 5% penalty for having less than 30 base Cha)

I find it very tough to make a STR-based Warchanter due to the armor limitations for casting and concealment.

[Edit: Checking for your stats, it seems you forgot that dwarves get -2 CHA. this will leave the build 2 short of being able to use the epics.]

[Edit-2: With no save feats and no Paladin or BG levels, your saves will be low: F54, R52, W53. With a STR mod of 24 (in +12 gear) your max AB will be around 91.]

[Yojimbo]

Oct 26, 2010 19:58:19 GMT BigStick said:

[Edit: Checking for your stats, it seems you forgot that dwarves get -2 CHA. this will leave the build 2 short of being able to use the epics.]

[Edit-2: With no save feats and no Paladin or BG levels, your saves will be low: F54, R52, W53. With a STR mod of 24 (in +12 gear) your max AB will be around 91.]

I would say that AB is acceptable the saves are just below what most consider the minimum by your calculations. I checked and you are right the starting stat points are too high.

He could drop starting CHA to 14, CON to 14, and boost STR to 16(22). Swap out 2 ability points he puts into STR for CHA and gets nearly what he had before. I would probably drop DEX from 10(12) to 8(10) and boost INT to 14(16) or CON to 16.

[SallerAseph]

First of all thanks to all that replied to my little experiment, very appreciated.

I didnt see the fact that the heavy flail makes me unable to use an off hand shield, which will destroy any hopes of a good AC I guess. Also, it seems I took too many points at start up which can be fixed.
Finally the documentation around conceal is kinda vague. I was under the impression that EV would not give me the high conceal I am looking for, but that Displacement actually would (I figured the displacement gives the same conceal as EV would but without the restrictions IF you were a warchanter)

These things means that the build may be broken all in all. It doesnt help that all persons I talked to speifically warned me of this quasi class either

I guess I will leave it at that then and possibly make something else. Shame though, I like the idea of the quasi a lot

Best regards Samir

[Yojimbo]

You can go with Light Hammer to free up the offhand and yes WC use Displacement for Conceal instead of EV. For better AC while wielding a Heavy Flail you would have to go the UNI route I believe. You are missing Toughness I am trying to rework this build to Malephant to see if about making one wielding a Heavy Flail and Shield.

Here it is fit for Malephant

Stats: (Base/Sub/60)
STR 14/18/44
DEX 14/14/14
CON 12/18/18
INT 14/14/14
WIS 8/8/8
CHA 14/14/16

First 2 ability points in CHA

10 Bard > 16 DwD > 14 Bard

Feats:
1. Artist
3. Dodge
6. Curse Song
9. Still Spell
12. WF: Heavy Flail
15. IC: Heavy Flail
18. GWF: Heavy Flail
21. EWF: Heavy Flail
24. Epic Prowess
27. Lingering Song
30. Great Strength I
33. Great Strength II
36. Great Strength III
39. Great Strength IV

DwD bonus feat @ 24: Armor Skin
Bard bonus feat @ 39: Lasting Inspiration

LL Feats:
42. LWF: Heavy Flail
45. LSF: Illusion
48. ESF: Perform
51. Great Strength V
54. Great Strength VI
57. Great Strength VII
60. Great Strength VIII

My math says you will have 390 total skill points I would allocate them as follows:
Discipline: 63
Tumble: 60
Perform: 63
Taunt: 63
Listen: 63
Concentration: 40
Craft Armor: 19
Craft Weapon: 19

Saves calculations show max saves as follows:
Fortitude: 56
Reflex: 54
Will: 55

This should hit a top AB of 92 which isn't great but should be sufficient.
I believe AC will be around 120 which combined with 85% conceal should provide solid defense.

[Hercules]

hi all

this build does look cool, although I dont know much bout this quasi class.
The build itself seems really sturdy, but with the changes made to maelephant it looks like you can get keep the cake and eat it at the same time, in that you go large and can then have a shield and the original weapon of choice.

that could be a good dmg /tank.
good luck in the prosess of getting the ultimate build - it´s outhere !


¨Herc

[Yojimbo]

Updated Maelephant option to show skill point distribution & saves

[redbeard]

Dwarven Warchanters require Still Spell to get the quasi class. This will allow you to buff in armor and shield but requires casting the spell one level higher.

I'd drop the Extra Music. My 24 Bard/16 DWD warchanter seldom runs out of song between rests without the feat. And that includes being the primary party bard through Stygia. (We wanted UUU for Malad, I can't remember if I barded through Malb.)

If you max perform and get 50 points of perform through gear (not your own song) you should be able to support 93/2 = 46 levels of bardsong. Your Charisma bonus looks like +2 or +3 which would give you another level or two. Add +12 charisma from items/potions and you should have level 53 song. I think ESF Perform would bring you to 58.

I took Treasure Scent and Legend Lore to improve loot quality when I banked. Without them, you don't need to worry about banking (which can be a blessing).

My chanter is more fun to play than my bard or my DWD.

[SallerAseph]

Thanks a lot for your efforts in making this better and better yojimbo. In your last build it seems like you are missing still spell, a requirement for the quasi, so I thought you should know that

I thought of Maelephant as well but for some reason I thought that was a dex based race and dismissed it (going for str as a DwD seems like a no brainer). Looking at it now, it seems like a VERY smart choice because you get the heavy Flail and a shield that was originally intended.
Big props ! The maelephant build looks really good I must say !


I am confused about the conceal.
If I go dwarf Maelephant, level distribution as we have discussed and wield a Heavy Flail and a shield, what would be Conceal be and from what spell ?

I am also considering saves and if a splash is needed to make the saves better - I hope I can stay pure though.

I happen to have a Maelephant book so this might be the next build I try if we can make it seem worthwhile after all.

Bets regards Samir

EDIT: I guess the Greater Weapon Focus might get axed for still spell - even though I would hate to see it go. It might be possible to juggel the feats to get the still spell before level 26 though and possibly lose ESF perform instead.

I assume the bonus feats you mentioned are in addition to the level up sequence you described - other wise losing lasting inspiration and also armor skin would be painful.

[Yojimbo]

Sorry forgot Still Spell modified and dropped Extra Music for it as it only provide 4 more uses and you will have at least 24 uses I don't know if LLs count or not as I have never played a bard. Extra Music can also be found on a few Bard items so its the best choice to drop. Dropping GWF is also an option but I would say it is worth more than Extra Music.

Those Bonus feats are in addition to the normal feats you will not lose anything I just pulled them out so you knew they were bonus feats as not everything is available on those.

I would not splash this as you will lose the limbo call back chant and that is your biggest bonus. I would consider a saves artifact but I think those saves are at the minimum acceptable range. If you worry about saves and don't have or don't want to use the arti I would say best option is drop Artists for Luck of Heros and drop ESF: Perform for Leg. Luck. I suspect this will result in ~7 level drop in song but your a tank with candy not a bard

[redbeard]

The number of songs a bard or warchanter gets depends on the pre-ll bard levels. This build gets 24 without the extra music feat.

[SallerAseph]

Big thanks to you as well redbeard for helping advance this build.

I plotted it out (the maelephant build from Yojimbo) and I think I will try to make it when I get home just to see how it does. If all else fails, it should be a decent support character!

I checked some other builds and none seem to take Parry skill, is there a reason for this ?

Also I am still a bit confused about the conceal. After reding the forums it seems like I have to wear a light armor to get the EV bonus from the displacement spell (when wearing a shield). If this is correct, that means I get 85% conceal (caster level 60) - 5% cha penalty (since I have no base 30 cahrisma) -5% quasi penalty (wearing a shield) meaning 75% conceal. This will be further boosted by 5% from illusion, getting me 80% conceal total in light armor.
Can anybody verify this ?

Did you calculate the final AB and AC yojimbo ?
Final strength should land at 58 pre demi with no str arti.

Also I am not entirely sure what level bard song I get. From the documentation it seems like I would get 24 bard levels + 20 bard LL levels, and 16/2= 8 DD levels +2 levels from the artist feat = 54 levels total. This requires a perform skill of 54*2 = 108 if I have gotten this right.

Best regards Samir.

[Yojimbo]

Your conceal numbers look right to me and I calculated AB now so that is updated

[phalthallus]

Spells
...
- Level 3: Displacement (grants EV conceal in light armor or robes; no 5% penalty for having less than 30 base Cha), Greater Magic Weapon, Keen Edge, Wounding Whispers, Haste (grants an extra attack)
...

No pen for less than 30 Cha, so you get 5% back.

What's the -5% quasi penalty?

Looks to me like it should be 80% (pure level 60), plus 5% if you have LSF: Illusion, for a total of 85%. I may be missing something though.