Feat selection for Conjurer - Input please

[vorshlumpf]

Hi everyone,

My unlikely conjuration specialist has won a place in my heart, so I've actually started planning out his future. Also, I'd like to share the build for this toon on this forum. Can you please provide feedback on the feats I've listed below? E.g, not ideal; wrong order; missed something, etc.

Because of the focus on Conjuration, I didn't take Legendary Spell Focus in much (just Conjuration and Necromancy). Divination and Enchantment (the latter from Tome of Knowledge) were left at Epic SF - I'm not sure if I miss out on much because of that.

The highest Spell Penetration feats I left to the end since Evard's and summons don't observe SR.

Thanks.

- Niilo

Base Race: Human

Class	Feat Selection	Misc Notes
Wiz (1)	Spell Focus (Conjuration) Greater Spell Focus (Conjuration)	Arcane Specialization (Conjuration) Barred School (Evocation) Barred School (Illusion)
Wiz (2)
Wiz (3)	Toughness
Wiz (4)
Wiz (5)	Metamagic (Empower Spell)
Wiz (6)	Metamagic (Extend Spell)
Wiz (7)
Wiz (8)
Wiz (9)	Spell Penetration
Wiz (10)	Greater Spell Penetration
Wiz (11)
Wiz (12)	Spell Focus (Necromancy)
Wiz (13)
Wiz (14)
Wiz (15)	Greater Spell Focus (Necromancy) Spell Focus (Divination)
Wiz (16)
Wiz (17)
Wiz (18)	Greater Spell Focus (Divination)
Wiz (19)
Wiz (20)	Metamagic (Maximize Spell)
Wiz (21)	Epic Spell Focus (Conjuration)
Wiz (22)
Wiz (23)	Dragon Knight
Wiz (24)	Epic Mage Armor
Wiz (25)
Wiz (26)	Great Intelligence I
Wiz (27)	Great Intelligence II
Wiz (28)
Wiz (29)	Great Intelligence III
Wiz (30)	Great Intelligence IV
Wiz (31)
Wiz (32)	Great Intelligence V
Wiz (33)	Great Intelligence VI
Wiz (34)
Wiz (35)	Great Intelligence VII
Wiz (36)	Great Intelligence VIII
Wiz (37)
Wiz (38)	Epic Spell Focus (Necromancy)
Wiz (39)	Epic Spell Focus (Divination)
Wiz (40)
Wiz (41)		Legendary Tome of Knowledge (Enchantment)
Wiz (42)	Legendary Spell Focus (Conjuration)
Wiz (43)
Wiz (44)
Wiz (45)	Great Intelligence IX
Wiz (46)
Wiz (47)
Wiz (48)	Great Intelligence X
Wiz (49)
Wiz (50)
Wiz (51)	Greater Ruin
Wiz (52)
Wiz (53)
Wiz (54)	Legendary Spell Focus (Necromancy)
Wiz (55)
Wiz (56)
Wiz (57)	Epic Spell Penetration
Wiz (58)
Wiz (59)
Wiz (60)	Legendary Spell Penetration

[Torin]

Tougness? Is there no better feat?
Barred Illusion ...No EV? I would ban something other, maybe Enchantment.
And barred Evocation? No damage spell?

[simpetar]

Got the same feeling: barring Illu you block yourself the way to EV and GV, the real means of wizard defense (unless of course you have a huge stockpile of GS potions and some means of concealment, like Rona boots). If you insist, I would at least swap Toughness for shield proficiency, it will somewhat delay dying / triggering Contingency.

[Yojimbo]

Im with Torin and Simpetar Illusion the defensive bonuses of it are some of the best defensive measures an arcane has. Toughness is nice but Shield Proficiency is better unless you already have the pandect and the requirements to use it. I do get why you might bar Evocation on a Conjuration Wizard since Conjuration is now more or less viewed as a damage spell school.

[buddhamind]

In addition to what the preceding posters said, barring Illusion means you can't cast Weird, and barring Evo means you can't cast Bigby's.

I do not specialize on my wiz, and in fact I'm considering reincarnating to give it even more spell schools (it has 5 currently). I feel that superior spell focus in one school is not worth barring all spells from two other schools. Higher ground is set up so that the schools are more or less balanced. You get something from each.

For your reference here is a list I made when I was considering which schools to take the last time I reincarnated my wiz. These are not all the spells, just ones that I thought would be somewhat useful. I haven't modified it since that reincarnation, so there are probably holes / omissions. Oh, and don't forget to consider the epics.

And lastly, if you like Conj and Enchantment, why not try a Herald of Storms?




Illusion:

• Weird
  
• EV
  
• Phantasmal killer
  
• Epic: Starfire
  

Necromancy:

• Wail
  
• ED
  
• Horrid Wilting
  
• Create Undead
  
• Undeath to death
  
• FOD
  
• COD
  
• Enervation
  
• Eyebite
  
• Wrack
  
• Epic: Death of Magic
  

Conjuration:

• Summon Creature Spells
  
• Gate
  
• BBOD
  
• Greater Planar Binding
  
• Cloud spells (Acid Fog, Evard's, Grease, etc.)
  
• Vitriolic Sphere
  
• Orb spells
  
• Epic: Bigby Swarm
  

Transmutation:

• GS
  
• Mord's Sword
  
• STF
  
• FTS
  
• Disintegrate
  
• Tenser's
  
• Gr. Stoneskin
  
• Bestow Curse
  
• GMW (But benefited by Ench focuses)
  
• Keen
  
• Epic: Transmute Barrier
  

Divination:

• PW Kill
  
• Premonition
  
• PW Stun
  
• Lores
  
• Remove blindness/deafness
  
• C/C
  
• Epic: Contingency
  

Enchantment:

• Maze
  
• Rebuke
  
• Mass Blindness
  
• Mass Charm
  
• Mind Fog
  
• Epic: Ensnare True Denizen
  

Abjuration:

• Spell Mantles
  
• Mord
  
• Breach
  
• MB
  
• Banishment
  
• Energy Immunity
  
• Globes of Invulnerability
  
• Energy Buffer
  
• Epic: Mass Spell Destruction
  

Evocation:

• Damage spells (Freezing sphere, DBF, Chain Lightning, etc.)
  
• Sunburst
  
• Bigby's
  
• Detonate
  
• Epic: Missile Barrage
  

[Yojimbo]

I'm fairly certain Undeath to Death isn't an Illusion spell

[buddhamind]

Dec 19, 2011 15:32:09 GMT Yojimbo said:

I'm fairly certain Undeath to Death isn't an Illusion spell

Hmmm, indeed. I'm not sure why I had it written down under Illusion.

[simpetar]

Aye, UtD is necromancy (and arguably in more than one aspect superior to Sunburst).

So much discussed wizard "strength" has always been in their ability to learn and cast every single spell out there and learn more when new spells are introduced. (This has been the main argument for "wizzy vs. sorc" over 3 years now and never true, but that is another matter entirely.) Specialization should be left to wizard based specialists, i.e. Staffies and PMs. By the looks of it, I would say it is herald you are looking for. If not, leaving 2 schools completely without focus is a way (after all, you *can* eventually come across gear with GSF, use draughts, Energy Drain etc. and get some reasonable results), but barring them is a reaaaally bad idea IMHO.

Side note: barring Evo will prevent using Gust scrolls / wands, for stuff like Nightmare clouds, Arachil webs and more... oops

simpetar

[vorshlumpf]

Thanks for the input, everyone. My goal was to make a Conjuration specialist. It seems that such a pursuit is ludicrous given the end-game areas of which I have no experience. However, I still wish to make a Conjuration (Wizard) specialist, even if that means the character will not fully fulfill the role that Wizards traditionally have on this server. With that in mind, I'd appreciate continued feedback.

As such, I have gleaned two pieces from this so far. Take shield proficiency instead of toughness and don't bar Illusion or Evocation. The former I'll consider. As for the latter, what schools to bar?

Divination: I feel that Premonition and Contingincy are too good to lose.
Evocation: It seems that this school is only good for Bigby's; I wasn't worried about losing those.
Necromancy: Some good save-or-die spells.
Illusion: EV and GV are pretty important.
Transmutation: Greater Sanctuary - 'nuff said.
Enchantment: I only went for this for the epic spell, to go along with the theme of the build.
Abjuration: Mord; Energy Buffer; both very important spells in my mind.

So, looking at that list, I'd still choose Evocation for sure. Maybe Necromancy instead of Illusion?

Thanks a lot for that list, buddhamind. I'm building a more comprehensive list of the relation between spell schools and spells on HG, and that will help.

simpetar, for what it's worth, I'm pretty sure it's okay to use wands that have barred spells on them. The documentation only mentions scrolls. And my toon can use a Rod of Ghostly Visage. But that doesn't solve the problem of missing out on the upgraded versions of barred schools, since the spell is cast at the level designated for the item in question.

Thanks again for all your input.

- Niilo

[Yojimbo]

It is mostly that a specialist Wizard has to sacrifice so much and what wizard excel at is having a wider range of spells to use, though must prepare them each day, than other Arcane. Though I do find that this wider range is not that much greater as generally a Wizard has 0-1 more Spell School with ESF or better than a Sorcerer and only defensive spells are still worth much w/o ESF or better. Specialization is great for a DC wizard but at the cost of 2 schools this often become impractical as most schools contain either great offensive spells or defensive and you tend to place the foci in the offense. Leaving one often to sacrifice a defensive spell school or two. Wizards which already have a degree of specialization often find more freedom to take specialization. The caveat to the example in the OP is that there is a specialization sorcerer/druid quasi class which would give the OP equal or greater power in the primary desired school with out baring any other spells.

I will say after looking at the spell lists given I wonder how well one would do with out Illusion would mean little to no conceal but w/ Divination Foci would mean Premonition soak is maximized. I personally would look to give up Abjuration as the primary benefit to having the school enabled is Mord and Counter Spelling which Counter Spelling can be done if you have the actual counter spell verse the general counter spell(s) found in Abjuration. In the end I would say Enchantment and Evocation are the best schools to forgo on this build if the op wishes to continue with the idea.

[simpetar]

Ok, ok, looks like we forgot to ask a crucial question: where do you intend to take this build to, where do you think you will be spending most of the time? Clearly you want to specialize, that is given, so now the task is to find 2 schools to bar. Different runs have different requirements, and even though nothing is really "needed" (walls are for Nes... I mean beetle cave), some spells can make life in certain runs soooo much easier.

[buddhamind]

Based on that list in his sig, I'd guess probably Pre-LL and low LL runs.

[vorshlumpf]

Yes, in case it wasn't clear, I am determined to make a specialist Conjuration wizard I appreciate the concern that I am possibly limiting the enjoyment I'll get from this build, but I welcome the challenge of not having access to about 1/4 of all wizard spells.

My goal is to make this toon as fun as possible for as long as possible. I'm having a lot of fun with it now, but that's not saying much since I've only attained 15th level. I have no doubt that I'll continue having lots of fun up to 40th level - which is well worth the investment to me. Beyond 40th? Haven't a clue, and that's why I asked for help sorting out the details.

I appreciate feedback on which schools to ban. I had previously intended to put this build together with improvements to share on this forum, but I'm rethinking that now. So, since my toon's banned schools are already determined, perhaps the discussion can focus on the original request: how do the feats look?

I hadn't planned on getting Legendary Spell Focus Divination. That loses +1 to Premonition soak (thanks for pointing that out, Yojimbo) and +2 DC for PWK - I don't know how debilitating the former is, and I have not used and not seen used PWK that much. I could replace LSF Necro with Div - or pull one of the Epic Spells.

- Niilo

[buddhamind]

Here are my opinions on the feats.

I think that Empowered + Extended + Maximized spells is a bit overkill. But then again I know some people swear by maximized spells, so it's probably just personal preference. I would just take 2 of the 3.

I have never tried Dragon Knight. I would be interested in hearing how it performs since the summons update. Keep in mind you need 22 points in spellcraft to take this feat.

I do not normally use Epic Mage Armor, except off of an item. I'm not entirely sure what it does except for the small bonus to dodge AC.

From a playability standpoint you get more from spell pen and spell focuses than from Great Intelligence. I would change the order of your feats, like so:


Epic Spell Focus (Necromancy)
Epic Spell Focus (Divination)
Dragon Knight
Epic Mage Armor
Greater Ruin
Epic Spell Penetration
Great Intelligence I
Great Intelligence II
Great Intelligence III
Great Intelligence IV
Great Intelligence V
Great Intelligence VI


Legendary Tome of Knowledge (Enchantment)
Legendary Spell Focus (Conjuration)
Legendary Spell Focus (Necromancy)
Legendary Spell Penetration
Great Intelligence VII
Great Intelligence VIII
Great Intelligence IX
Great Intelligence X

[vorshlumpf]

Awesome, thanks for that.

Dec 20, 2011 1:15:27 GMT buddhamind said:

I think that Empowered + Extended + Maximized spells is a bit overkill. But then again I know some people swear by maximized spells, so it's probably just personal preference. I would just take 2 of the 3.

I agree. I was following the general trend. Plus I don't have a lot of feats that I really want pre-epic. Are there any pre-epic feats you'd recommend to replace Maximize?

I have never tried Dragon Knight. I would be interested in hearing how it performs since the summons update. Keep in mind you need 22 points in spellcraft to take this feat.

Yeah, once I saw that it scales based upon Conjuration, I had to go for it. I'm excited to try it out.

I do not normally use Epic Mage Armor, except off of an item. I'm not entirely sure what it does except for the small bonus to dodge AC.

I've never used it. I figured the extra defence would be important. If the documentation is correct, it gives "+20 armor class bonus" to start (I guess this is an armor bonus, as opposed to deflection, but I don't know). On top of that, Higher Ground does the following:
- At CL41, grants an additional +((CL - 40) / 2) Dodge AC, +((CL - 40) * 2) Concentration, Discipline, and Parry skills.
- At CL50, grants Epic Dodge as a bonus feat.

From a playability standpoint you get more from spell pen and spell focuses than from Great Intelligence.

So my idea that a dependence on summons and Evards would reduce the importance of Spell Penetration does not stack up to scrutiny, eh? Thanks for the re-ordering. As for Epic Spell Penetration, I'm not sure if I agree with putting it so early. I didn't notice much trouble with spell resistance for my cleric levelling up to 40.

Assuming I ever get there, do you think a Tomb of Enchantment makes more sense than Trans or Abj? As I said, the only reason I chose it is because the epic spell fit with the theme of the character (using other creatures to do the dirty work).

Thanks again.

- Niilo