Shifter vs Ranger CC

[Shroomery_]

What are the pros and cons of each? Both for tanking humanoid forms. Which would you guys prefer? Can go with:

22ranger/5druid/13 shifter
or
5druid/7ranger/28shifter

What do you guys think?

Shroomery_

[uncanny]

I had a similar discussion a few months back; and generally speaking the choice depends on how you want to play: solo melee or ability with melee abilities.

I've actually run both now from mid 30's using old toons rebuilt, the high shifter to 55 and the high ranger all the way to 60 (currently mid-hells). I found the high ranger was more effective once I hit upper 50's thanks to the bladethirst at +13 and the buffs; and as a melee toon much more fun for me.

From my perspective, higher ranger would be a melee-focused solo capable build; a higher shifter build would be more flexible and capable of doing other stuff like stone and curse, perhaps 5 Ranger would be better (you don't really "get" anything for the other 2 ranger levels).

[Shakua]

CC ranger dont stop harpys from having max curse.

CC ranger is better for a melee build thats focused on tanking and dealing nice damage, with attack bonus that can surpass some weapon masters. Also flexiable in what kinda of tank you are.

I will have consider putting improved disarm on one hrm..

[hfb]

A middle path may actually be better w/ 16 shifter so that LFF-Wildshape 3 is possible. This cuts the soloing options as it does not allow for BT to be fully realizable, but if one is not soloing, the use of an Epode opens many doors, even for a shifter-tank. The best such door in my opinion is Undead: spectre lvl drain, stocking upon HP at the tail end of a battle w/ Vamp (not to mention GS, FTW or at least to avoid the loss), and of course risen lord. Also, WS itself brings w/ it tank/melee forms (tiger, mino, wyvern all w/ kd and G.cube w/ disarm, and Xorn w/ petrification). Granted the defensive potential for some of the melee forms is lacking, but "off tanking" can also happen. This of course is the strength of the shifter: being able to do many, many more things than other characters.

Besides, better than +13 wpn buff can be obtained through consumables if you really want to solo. BT is the only significant sacrifice from lowered ranger casting, there are others, but they are not of great importance.

TL;DR: 16 ranger, 5 druid, 17 shifter, 2 ranger loses 1AB and +13 BT, but maxes options at the top end of shifter and shifter is ALL about the options.

[tomaan]

Feb 3, 2012 14:52:07 GMT hfb said:

A middle path may actually be better w/ 16 shifter so that LFF-Wildshape 3 is possible. This cuts the soloing options as it does not allow for BT to be fully realizable, but if one is not soloing, the use of an Epode opens many doors, even for a shifter-tank. The best such door in my opinion is Undead: spectre lvl drain, stocking upon HP at the tail end of a battle w/ Vamp (not to mention GS, FTW or at least to avoid the loss), and of course risen lord. Also, WS itself brings w/ it tank/melee forms (tiger, mino, wyvern all w/ kd and G.cube w/ disarm, and Xorn w/ petrification). Granted the defensive potential for some of the melee forms is lacking, but "off tanking" can also happen. This of course is the strength of the shifter: being able to do many, many more things than other characters.

Interesting idea, but I think you are better served by going all-in with one or the other.

Meaning: if you want a tank who can shift, you should go the ranger CC route.

If you want a shifter who can tank, go the shifter CC route.

[redbeard]

Feb 2, 2012 23:46:30 GMT Shakua said:

CC ranger dont stop harpys from having max curse.

From the Class Changes Document Page:

Harpy (Rank 7)
- Harpies can fly.
- Harpy Song - Harpy Song is the equivalent of Bard Curse Song. Bard song level is equivalent to Shifter level (including LLs).
- Animal Empathy is used in place of Perform, with 6 points of Animal Empathy being equivalent to 5 Perform; hence, AE 120 is sufficient to reach song level 50 at Shifter 50.
- Each focus rank extends the duration of the Curse by 5 rounds.
- See the Bard documentation (!doc bard) for more information on Curse Song.

5 druid/28 Rgr/ 27 Shifter would have a level 27 curse -- If the build invested enough points in Animal Empathy. Lower number of shifter levels would reduce the curse song benefit.

[hfb]

Feb 3, 2012 22:28:19 GMT redbeard said:

Feb 2, 2012 23:46:30 GMT Shakua said:

CC ranger dont stop harpys from having max curse.

From the Class Changes Document Page:

Harpy (Rank 7)
- Harpies can fly.
- Harpy Song - Harpy Song is the equivalent of Bard Curse Song. Bard song level is equivalent to Shifter level (including LLs).
- Animal Empathy is used in place of Perform, with 6 points of Animal Empathy being equivalent to 5 Perform; hence, AE 120 is sufficient to reach song level 50 at Shifter 50.
- Each focus rank extends the duration of the Curse by 5 rounds.
- See the Bard documentation (!doc bard) for more information on Curse Song.

5 druid/28 Rgr/ 27 Shifter would have a level 27 curse -- If the build invested enough points in Animal Empathy. Lower number of shifter levels would reduce the curse song benefit.

I like your creativity, but you can't get the 28/27 split w/ the way control class works. Most balanced numbers possible w/ 5 druid would be 17/38.

@tomann: In general, I agree in HG "all-in" is the best option and the munchkin question is then, "How do I get there?" My proposal is "all-in" for shifter-tank, the "middle" or "other" path is choosing between, on the one hand, LFF(s) and options for tanking and, on the other hand, BAB and self-buffing from ranger.

Given the relatively small differential in AB and that top-end shifter AB is totally yummy, I see plenty of room to increase the core tanking ability through more options as long as the player is cool with not soloing or with using consumables when doing so.

Gotta love the complexity of the Shifter.