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Post by archmage on Mar 12, 2012 13:34:32 GMT
As a long time player of shifters, I have to completely disagree with you Deso. Versatility is what shifters are and have always been about, and this has never been the case moreso than in today's HG. While I typically agree with you that dc is king, for shifters it becomes a bit more blurry. Opening up a whole new form focus allows them to do things never before possible, by utilizing more shapes and gaining more powers. Its almost equivalent to a sorc suddenly being able to crumble an enemy he cast flesh to stone on. Suddenly gaining outsider foci means that a shifter could now full function as a bard and offer leonal song, or taking on construct means they could drain things to death en masse. ITs not something to be underestimated.
For you dc may very well be the way you want to go, but its not a black and white superior choice by any means. A good shifter can make up the dc in other ways, or rely on the party to help them do so.
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Post by desocupado on Mar 12, 2012 14:03:54 GMT
As a long time player of shifters, I have to completely disagree with you Deso. Versatility is what shifters are and have always been about, and this has never been the case moreso than in today's HG. While I typically agree with you that dc is king, for shifters it becomes a bit more blurry. Opening up a whole new form focus allows them to do things never before possible, by utilizing more shapes and gaining more powers. Its almost equivalent to a sorc suddenly being able to crumble an enemy he cast flesh to stone on. Suddenly gaining outsider foci means that a shifter could now full function as a bard and offer leonal song, or taking on construct means they could drain things to death en masse. ITs not something to be underestimated. For you dc may very well be the way you want to go, but its not a black and white superior choice by any means. A good shifter can make up the dc in other ways, or rely on the party to help them do so. Well 2 less DC is the difference between open and BUR subraces. But you are right as it isn't set in stone, you could put a new set at rank 3, and get 3 sets to rank 4 or be more defensive in all 3 sets, a personal choice. But you'd need to memorize shapes with the numpad to be effective.
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Post by tyranlthixis on Mar 13, 2012 17:11:23 GMT
As a long time player of shifters, I have to completely disagree with you Deso. Versatility is what shifters are and have always been about, and this has never been the case moreso than in today's HG. While I typically agree with you that dc is king, for shifters it becomes a bit more blurry. Opening up a whole new form focus allows them to do things never before possible, by utilizing more shapes and gaining more powers. Its almost equivalent to a sorc suddenly being able to crumble an enemy he cast flesh to stone on. Suddenly gaining outsider foci means that a shifter could now full function as a bard and offer leonal song, or taking on construct means they could drain things to death en masse. ITs not something to be underestimated. For you dc may very well be the way you want to go, but its not a black and white superior choice by any means. A good shifter can make up the dc in other ways, or rely on the party to help them do so. Well 2 less DC is the difference between open and BUR subraces. But you are right as it isn't set in stone, you could put a new set at rank 3, and get 3 sets to rank 4 or be more defensive in all 3 sets, a personal choice. But you'd need to memorize shapes with the numpad to be effective. Shifters generally don't have to deal with spell resistance so the % miss per cast isn't the same dynamic as a caster. What I would say is 4 full legendary focus is a lot of shapes to manage.... it may be more valuable to play 3 form with extremely high D/C since there is a lot of over lap and that many forms is just hard to juggle. The choice though is not a clear black and white one though. I think Arch is making a really good point. This is also why I haven't added note on paragon feats to any of my builds (shifter, caster, or tanks). I will likely be doing paragon Wildshape and picking up another legendary form focus.
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Post by desocupado on Mar 13, 2012 19:46:13 GMT
Well 2 less DC is the difference between open and BUR subraces. But you are right as it isn't set in stone, you could put a new set at rank 3, and get 3 sets to rank 4 or be more defensive in all 3 sets, a personal choice. But you'd need to memorize shapes with the numpad to be effective. Shifters generally don't have to deal with spell resistance so the % miss per cast isn't the same dynamic as a caster. What I would say is 4 full legendary focus is a lot of shapes to manage.... it may be more valuable to play 3 form with extremely high D/C since there is a lot of over lap and that many forms is just hard to juggle. The choice though is not a clear black and white one though. I think Arch is making a really good point. This is also why I haven't added note on paragon feats to any of my builds (shifter, caster, or tanks). I will likely be doing paragon Wildshape and picking up another legendary form focus. Well, due to the nature of my builds, I've found these new AC feats will be extremely handy with forms that have low range abilities, like Constructs, Risenlord, Gelatinous Cube or even Azer Chieftain.
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Post by shardelay on Mar 16, 2012 21:43:59 GMT
I'm curious about what turners are getting in paragon levels, anyone got one? I took destruction domain and then was at a near total loss as to what to do. My choice was essentially should i boost rebuke, banish, or summons. I went with summons because I rely heavily on BB, CD, and SoV for damage on my turner. I think boosting banish or rebuke would be a good option as well, especialyl since charisma doesn't count towards BB AB (which stinks). In general, on tanks I've been taking PWF and then sorta holding off on leveling until I get a better lay of the land adn see how paragon feats all iron out. The price to reinc ~FEELS~ much steeper now that lvl 80 is a reality, and ~IS~ much steeper post abyss tags, so I'm holding off a bit.
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Post by Shakua on Mar 17, 2012 13:44:30 GMT
So far..
Pharlan Barbarian- all paragon enviriomental except levitation and greater weapon focus/paragon weapon focus Dex cot-same deal Zen Ranger- All enviromental , skill points to listen and alieving penalties Caster druid- Paragon Illusion , Trans and the special epics that go with them. Staff monk- 2 greater dex feats, some enviromental . I think he can pull off 68 str and 50ish dex check by 80 Everything else is kinda in a limbo in decissions
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Post by Torin on Mar 18, 2012 16:02:57 GMT
Thanks for all the post so far. Very interesting.
I'm a bit surprised that no one takes Paragon saves feats. And no one takes Paragon of Stability. Any thoughts on this?
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Post by desocupado on Mar 18, 2012 18:55:40 GMT
Thanks for all the post so far. Very interesting. I'm a bit surprised that no one takes Paragon saves feats. And no one takes Paragon of Stability. Any thoughts on this? People have been building with the 60 saves goal, so they don't feel that as a necessity. But i suppose one could build around using the paragon feat to get a save on the safe range. About stability, perhaps only a Uni character could benefit from it, as the second roll is -6, isn't?
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Post by Lythe Featherblade on Mar 18, 2012 20:38:39 GMT
Paragon saves feats have high prerequisits and limited return.
Epic fort gives 4 fort save with no prerequisit Paragon fort gives 5 fort save and requires great fortitude and Legendary Fortitude
Paragon Hardened Soul requires Legendary Hardened Soul and Hardened Soul (1st level only) and gives 3 more to 2 saves, for a total of (1+5+3) 9 to 2 saves If you look at great fortitude and lightning reflexes, plus legendary fort and reflexes, you are also at +9 to 2 saves, yes you need 1 more feat, but you don't have to spend a valuable level 1 feat which tanks often need for the blooded+LSA tumble chain.
Also you have to consider that the higher level you are, the more options you have for feats, and feats in a chain you possibly didn't qualify for earlier, you now may. An example is a dexer aiming for dev crit feats, at level 70+ might have an additional 4 strength from demi2+ and 1 str from paragon levels, so could fit in Dev Crit with its 25 str requirement much easier, requiring only 20 base (kolyarut is +5, 15 base str at creation isn't unheard of and doesn't cost any more stat feats)
I've taken Paragon of Stability on 2 characters so far, and I haven't worked on any others yet. The -6 on the reroll does take a bit of wind out of its sails, means it's generally only useful if you are failing on 4's or less.
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Post by shomi on Mar 18, 2012 21:00:41 GMT
In the current state of the mod the '60 saves goal' is now the '65-70 saves goal'. Mob DCs in abyss are upwards of 65 before paragons, and multiple mobs apply stacking save drop debuffs as well as the layer penalties permanently lowering saves.
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Post by Yojimbo on Mar 19, 2012 18:26:47 GMT
Currentl;y only have 3 toons with enough exp to take even 1 Paragon feat and all 3 are melee and all 3 took PWF as their first choice. My Battle Druid, aka Stormlord, took PWF and LSF Conjuration next 2 planned feats are PSF and PSK Conjuration beyond that I am undecided. I mostly have tanks so besides PWF for all of them I don't know I suspect my Fighter I will try and fit in LWS and PWS when they land. The Paragon stat check feats are also enticing to make my tanks more uni like or solidify thier uni status. My single caster will take Paragon Spell Penetration and likely pic up 2 PSF+PSK which eats up 5 of the 6 feats you get so not too sure might drop a PSK for another PSF. Being that my sole caster is a wizard the last Paragon feat will likely be Paragon Polymathy.
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Post by tomaan on Mar 22, 2012 12:33:43 GMT
Paragon saves feats have high prerequisits and limited return. Epic fort gives 4 fort save with no prerequisit Paragon fort gives 5 fort save and requires great fortitude and Legendary Fortitude Paragon Hardened Soul requires Legendary Hardened Soul and Hardened Soul (1st level only) and gives 3 more to 2 saves, for a total of (1+5+3) 9 to 2 saves If you look at great fortitude and lightning reflexes, plus legendary fort and reflexes, you are also at +9 to 2 saves, yes you need 1 more feat, but you don't have to spend a valuable level 1 feat which tanks often need for the blooded+LSA tumble chain. Agreed. My Ranger CC Shifter tank has low reflex saves -- I'll be taking Legendary Reflexes in Paragon levels but that's it. No need for the Paragon. I took Paragon Humanoid and Undead form foci for AB, AC and DCs (on Undead) -- the AC boost has been very helpful for my 2x demi run; even with 1x Hells penalties, my AC was ~140 in Cania. I haven't really notice the DC boost, but that's mostly because I haven't played Risen Lord or Drow that much while going for 2x demi -- will probably start using them more once I do Nessus again. I have two feats left and will likely use them on Paragon Lev/Water breathing feats - but that's mostly for the 20% elemental immunities.
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