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Post by desocupado on Mar 27, 2012 17:04:55 GMT
I could use some help improving this build. Comments and suggestions are welcome.
Objetives:
Full rogue skills (tough I'm not incuding craft trap or bluff right now despite high int, perhaps I should)
Heavy physical damage dealer - Full sneak attack damage, with blungeoning (sling/shield) and piercing (light xbow) as damage types from ranged distance
Good saves/defenses
Passable AB
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Rogue 40
Halfling: can take Legendary Luck without Luck of Heroes
Subrace: Furchin - Fast, 50% Immunity (Cold), Feats: WF Sling, Epic WF Sling
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Str 12
Dex 18+2 (+20/level) +4/rogue = 44 ( hence +23 with +12 gear)
Con 12+4
Int 16+2
Wis 8+4
Cha 8
Feats 21 +16/rogue = 37
5 Saves: Fort+2/7 Will+2/7 All+3
2 Disciple: Bullheaded - Legendary Skill Affinity
8 Improved Sneak attack
2 Rogue skills: ESF search - ESF Disable trap
6 Rogue-only feats : (all 6) CripS - DefRoll - ImpEvasion - Opportunist - SkM - SlipM
4 Combat: Pointblank shot - Epic Prowess - Armor Skin - Epic Dodge
5 Xbow - WF - IC - EWF - LWF - Rapid reload
4 Sling - (bonus WF and EWF) LWF - IC -Shield prof - Rapid shot
1 free feat: (several options, i find Legendary skill focus being the most attractive at the moment)
AB: 37 +7(feat) +20(magic) +5(opportunist) +23 (dex) +2(CW) +1 (pointblank) = 93 // might be ok, with only 3 base attacks (demi, +14/+16, dex arty can improve this by 5)
Pandect: sneak attack +2d6 Wrong feat calculation
Feats 21 +8/rogue = 29
**5 Saves: Fort+2/7 Will+2/7 All+3
*2 Disciple: Bullheaded - Legendary Skill Affinity
8 Improved Sneak attack
6 Rogue-only feats : (all 6) CripS - DefRoll - ImpEvasion - Opportunist - SkM - SlipM
*4 Combat: Pointblank shot - Epic Prowess - Armor Skin - Epic Dodge
***4 Sling - (bonus WF and EWF) LWF - IC -Shield prof - GWF
AB: 37 +8(feat) +20(magic) +5(opportunist) +23 (dex) +2(CW) +1 (pointblank) +1halfling -2/rapid = 95 // ok, with only 3 base attacks (demi, +14/+16, dex arty can improve this by 5)
Pandect: sneak attack +2d6
Saves (these values are at 60 with +12 gear and +20 saves):
Fort 6 +9 +2+7+3 +35 = 62
Ref 12 +23 +35 = 70
Will 6 +7 +2 +7 +3 +35 = 60
Skills: enough to maximize 14 skills with 20 leftover points:
Craft Armor
Craft Weapon
Concentration
Disciple
Disable Trap
Hide
Listen
Open Lock
Parry
Pickpocket
Search
Set Trap
Tumble
UMD
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Post by Shakua on Mar 27, 2012 21:10:35 GMT
well...better off in the party as a melee build for one. offers utility as a tank.
without 4 levels of a tier 1 class, really cant be considered a major damage dealer either.
No point having set trap without craft trap.
93 ab would be passible for open subrace.
I cant really read your feat list when its all shortened or appears to be listed twice.
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Post by desocupado on Mar 27, 2012 23:11:06 GMT
well...better off in the party as a melee build for one. offers utility as a tank. without 4 levels of a tier 1 class, really cant be considered a major damage dealer either. One needs to be a pure rogue ignore sneak attack immunity. This means this guy can inflict 30d6 extra physical damage with sneak attack since he chooses his targets from range. The sling/shield allows a good AC boost in a pintch, while xbow has more extra attacks. No point having set trap without craft trap. If I'm not mistaken, Hell traps, not the damage ones, can be used without craft trap, is this correct? This kind of quesiton is one of the reasons I'm asking for help here. 93 ab would be passible for open subrace. I think that with bab 15, one should need 5 less AB than reccomended 95-100 value for 16+ BAB characters, no? Hence with +14 gear and Dex arty I'm at AB 95 without demi interactions. I cant really read your feat list when its all shortened or appears to be listed twice. I tought this categorized feat layout would make it easier to read. Well I did a few clarifications on the feats. |
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Post by the1kobra on Mar 28, 2012 0:11:02 GMT
I write this post as someone who has a significant amount of experience working with crossbow rogue. I know, given that I have one that is 5x demi and has been around for a long time. I also made the click build, which, while great at one point, sadly just doesn't have the pow that it used to. The crossbow rogue is, unfortunately, a subpar character concept.
It's been that way since the physical damage changes, alas. Elemental damage takes up a significantly higher amount of damage than they used to in comparison to physical. Since the sneak attacks are all physical... well, you get the idea. The scaling weapon buffs also play into this.
Crossbows get 2 more attacks than a melee weapon, slings get 1, though at a -1 (if you include the halfling bonus). They're part of the bonus progression too, so are quite likely to hit. They get the full sneak attack if you play it right... however...
On elemental damage, you're pretty much hosed. The top bolts/bullets get 6d6 physical, and 2x6d6 elemental and 1x6d6 exotic. Keep in mind you can't change these, though you can switch to (weaker) ammunition to change damage types up.
Melee weapons, on the other hand, get 3x2d12 elemental and 3x2d12 exotic, +14-16 physical (GMW/IoF situation may vary), however, if buffed, the weapons can usually get 3x6d12 elemental, and sometimes you can get the exotics buffed too. You won't be getting as many attacks but you'll certainly get more bang out of melee weapons, -especially- on crits.
I'd really recommend doing one of two things:
1: If you want to split-focus your weapons like that, take a melee weapon and a ranged weapon. Since you're small, you've got a very small range of weapons which you can use with opportunist and crippler strike. For melee, that's dagger, katar, Kukri, and Sai, but Kukri and Sai will require you to spend a feat on exotic weapon proficiency, though they will give you slashing and bludge damage accordingly.
For ranged, you've got the choice of slings and light crossbows. Slings get the shield offhand, bludge damage, and halflings get a +1 AB bonus with slings. You may not have to worry about grabbing rapid shot, since some of the top end slings have the feat. (I personally don't like relying on item based feats though).
You can also take light crossbow, piercing, reasonable crit range, and +2 attacks.
You probably want to take weapons with two different physical damage types.
2: Your second option is scrapping small size and pure rogue, go 35/4/1 Rogue/fullBABclass/Monk, and dual wield monk weapons. Undying works well for this. You can go either fighter or paladin, either should work, really. Either way, using nunchucks is probably the way to go, since you won't have to worry about them slagging. You should still be able to fulfill all rogue functions with this combo.
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Post by desocupado on Mar 28, 2012 1:15:14 GMT
I write this post as someone who has a significant amount of experience working with crossbow rogue. I know, given that I have one that is 5x demi and has been around for a long time. I also made the click build, which, while great at one point, sadly just doesn't have the pow that it used to. The crossbow rogue is, unfortunately, a subpar character concept. Such a shame :/ Your input on this matter is greatly appreciated tough. It's been that way since the physical damage changes, alas. Elemental damage takes up a significantly higher amount of damage than they used to in comparison to physical. Since the sneak attacks are all physical... well, you get the idea. The scaling weapon buffs also play into this. I can see how this affects the build concept as whole. For the sake of comparison do you have any actual damage log from your pure rogue? Crossbows get 2 more attacks than a melee weapon, slings get 1, though at a -1 (if you include the halfling bonus). They're part of the bonus progression too, so are quite likely to hit. They get the full sneak attack if you play it right... however... On elemental damage, you're pretty much hosed. The top bolts/bullets get 6d6 physical, and 2x6d6 elemental and 1x6d6 exotic. Keep in mind you can't change these, though you can switch to (weaker) ammunition to change damage types up. Melee weapons, on the other hand, get 3x2d12 elemental and 3x2d12 exotic, +14-16 physical (GMW/IoF situation may vary), however, if buffed, the weapons can usually get 3x6d12 elemental, and sometimes you can get the exotics buffed too. You won't be getting as many attacks but you'll certainly get more bang out of melee weapons, -especially- on crits. So this build made a lot of sense in the past. Perhaps it's the ranged weapons that need rebalancing, not the build concept. As of now, ranged fighting sacrifices shield AC for the ability to pick targets at will. That being said, melee option is much superior on the actual state of things. I'd really recommend doing one of two things: 1: If you want to split-focus your weapons like that, take a melee weapon and a ranged weapon. Since you're small, you've got a very small range of weapons which you can use with opportunist and crippler strike. For melee, that's dagger, katar, Kukri, and Sai, but Kukri and Sai will require you to spend a feat on exotic weapon proficiency, though they will give you slashing and bludge damage accordingly. For ranged, you've got the choice of slings and light crossbows. Slings get the shield offhand, bludge damage, and halflings get a +1 AB bonus with slings. You may not have to worry about grabbing rapid shot, since some of the top end slings have the feat. (I personally don't like relying on item based feats though). You can also take light crossbow, piercing, reasonable crit range, and +2 attacks. You probably want to take weapons with two different physical damage types. [/qoute] The choice Sling + Xbow was sinergy with furchin the subrace bonus feats and stat distribution. Going melee is indeed better given your suggestion below. 2: Your second option is scrapping small size and pure rogue, go 35/4/1 Rogue/fullBABclass/Monk, and dual wield monk weapons. Undying works well for this. You can go either fighter or paladin, either should work, really. Either way, using nunchucks is probably the way to go, since you won't have to worry about them slagging. You should still be able to fulfill all rogue functions with this combo. Doesn't this kind of build lose too much from not getting sneak attack immunity bypass? Guess I could just go sling + melee or use another subrace (making me lose interest on this character). |
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Post by the1kobra on Mar 28, 2012 1:55:24 GMT
I do. Reference thread/post is: HereRogues certainly got quite a shaft in the latest update. I did some log searching, and found a log of my crossbow rogue before the update, compared to his performance after the update: Before: users.hgweb.org/mish/logs/09-05-21maladomini.htmlAfter: users.hgweb.org/mish/logs/09-07-17cania.htmlNow obviously, logs like that are not conclusive, but there is plenty to be gained from them. In the log before, I'm third in place for damage, behind another rogue and a dev-crit AA. In the one after, I'm edging right on last place, and did less than half the damage of the top-damage dealing tank. There could be plenty of non-nerf reasons for this, like that I wasn't getting sneaks on one and not the other, that I was missing more, and that I was constantly using scrolls to raise, de-stone, PT2 party members, which would not show, but the logs do show how many hits were scored on the runs. Before: Damage = 152623, Swings/Hits/Crits = 2486/1625/ 119 After: Damage = 98588, Swings/Hits/Crits = 2740/1795/ 129 I actually got MORE hits in on the run after, and came out with less damage. If I just do a damage/hit ratio, before, it's 93.9218. On the run after, it's 54.9236. That's around a 40 a hit damage nerf, and on a character that gets 6 attacks a round, that's going to cut into damage quite harshly. I think a melee rogue will be even worse off, their swings will do more damage but they'll only get 4 of them, and if my calculations are correct, would be easily in dead last as far as tank damage is concerned. However, I think crossbow rogues were hit much more harshly from the update. In other words. Owch. On the ranged/melee divide... If you're going to pick two weapon foci, then you might as well take one ranged and one melee, otherwise there's going to be some overlap. Dagger and light crossbow may work well together, though they're both piercing damage weapons. Furchin also has the sling feats already, but the piercing/bludge damage combo may be useful. Note that you might want to use a subby like koly or half fiend because they get a more significant dexterity bonus. You only need 40 rogue levels to bypass sneak attack immunity, you could do it with melee weapons or ranged weapons, of course with ranged weapons you can do it from a distance. As for going 35/4/1 rogue/BABfullclass/monk, you give up bypass sneak immunity, but you gain a lot out of it. Dual wielding monk weapons means you get 9 attacks per round, compared to the 4 of a pure rogue. You get the benefits of the full BAB class and monk, which mean more feats, or more saves(for going pally, plus fear immunity), monk AC when shieldless, etc. It's a tradeoff for sure, though currently I think the splash rogues have more of the advantages currently. |
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Post by desocupado on Mar 28, 2012 2:12:33 GMT
I do. Reference thread/post is: HereRogues certainly got quite a shaft in the latest update. I did some log searching, and found a log of my crossbow rogue before the update, compared to his performance after the update: Before: users.hgweb.org/mish/logs/09-05-21maladomini.htmlAfter: users.hgweb.org/mish/logs/09-07-17cania.htmlNow obviously, logs like that are not conclusive, but there is plenty to be gained from them. In the log before, I'm third in place for damage, behind another rogue and a dev-crit AA. In the one after, I'm edging right on last place, and did less than half the damage of the top-damage dealing tank. There could be plenty of non-nerf reasons for this, like that I wasn't getting sneaks on one and not the other, that I was missing more, and that I was constantly using scrolls to raise, de-stone, PT2 party members, which would not show, but the logs do show how many hits were scored on the runs. Before: Damage = 152623, Swings/Hits/Crits = 2486/1625/ 119 After: Damage = 98588, Swings/Hits/Crits = 2740/1795/ 129 I actually got MORE hits in on the run after, and came out with less damage. If I just do a damage/hit ratio, before, it's 93.9218. On the run after, it's 54.9236. That's around a 40 a hit damage nerf, and on a character that gets 6 attacks a round, that's going to cut into damage quite harshly. I think a melee rogue will be even worse off, their swings will do more damage but they'll only get 4 of them, and if my calculations are correct, would be easily in dead last as far as tank damage is concerned. However, I think crossbow rogues were hit much more harshly from the update. In other words. Owch. On the ranged/melee divide... If you're going to pick two weapon foci, then you might as well take one ranged and one melee, otherwise there's going to be some overlap. Dagger and light crossbow may work well together, though they're both piercing damage weapons. Furchin also has the sling feats already, but the piercing/bludge damage combo may be useful. Note that you might want to use a subby like koly or half fiend because they get a more significant dexterity bonus. You only need 40 rogue levels to bypass sneak attack immunity, you could do it with melee weapons or ranged weapons, of course with ranged weapons you can do it from a distance. As for going 35/4/1 rogue/BABfullclass/monk, you give up bypass sneak immunity, but you gain a lot out of it. Dual wielding monk weapons means you get 9 attacks per round, compared to the 4 of a pure rogue. You get the benefits of the full BAB class and monk, which mean more feats, or more saves(for going pally, plus fear immunity), monk AC when shieldless, etc. It's a tradeoff for sure, though currently I think the splash rogues have more of the advantages currently. Well given this situation, it seems my rogue will stay at 40 non-imortal, for a while  Well, I have a fighter/monk/harper who surely will outdamage this guy by far, so the splashed rogue build isn't interesting for me at the momment... Thanks for the help. |
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Post by magecat on Mar 28, 2012 3:14:32 GMT
You might look at Darc's Goblin Ninja for insights into a melee concept Rogue...
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Post by gandoron on Mar 28, 2012 20:22:06 GMT
Shard and I worked on his rogue build. I think it's light xbow to start with -5/6 AB for sling and handaxe, with pretty reasonable hit rate.
-G
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