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Post by FunkySwerve on Apr 11, 2013 16:17:49 GMT
Lolz.
Anyway, moving on.
The more I dwell on it, the more I would prefer to see us get rid of at least one Greater Ability on Wiz, Druid, and Cleric. PM Robes has the issue as well, and Dex Assassin (and likely one or two others), but they seem less prone to the comparisons that are making the other casters seem dissatisfying to some. Other than the comparisons, there is the issue of initial stat dumps, which make the subs get a full +10 to their primary from the getgo, making it that much more difficult to leave some meaningful lower-level play.
Verdant Prince, at least, has an obvious ability, an Oath Pact. And Illumians are all about Sigil magic (and acaos was working on some new symbol spells, recently). Likewise, the God-Blooded could use some kind of Blood Magic spell, if we're ok with blatant DA ripoffs. Hmm...
Funky
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Post by chirality on Apr 11, 2013 20:32:10 GMT
the God-Blooded could use some kind of Blood Magic spell, if we're ok with blatant DA ripoffs. Ewwwwwwwno
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Post by FunkySwerve on Apr 12, 2013 17:08:20 GMT
I wound up tweaking Sorc back to using GC I and II. The specials for the other caster classes were just turning into too big a pain.
Funky
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Post by arek on Apr 12, 2013 20:35:15 GMT
Ok, with the incoming change to quarterstaves (no longer considered to be large weapons for damage bonus purposes), I'd like to reassert a variation of my original subrace suggestion for staff monks: Favored of Gruumesh (requires Half-Orc): +6 STR, +2 DEX, +2 CON, +4 WIS WF: QStaff, GWF: QStaff, WS: QStaff, EWS: QStaff, Armor Skin +5% to the conceal provided by Empty Body. If you still feel it must have an extra int penalty, change CON to +4 and give a -2 Penalty to INT. I don't think that this will be too overpowered for staffmasters anymore, tho, since even -2 INT (from h-orc) still needs to be worked around (SMs need 18 INT) and they won't be getting the oversize-weapon bonus. Could a staffmaster use this race? Yes, and some will. Would all of them? Unlikely. Some will want the SM XR race (provided its special gets tweaked a bit - I think it's underpowered atm, see below), and others will want the WM XR race, since both offer a higher AB potential than this does for staffmasters. The only other question you had was whether this would lock staff monks into a single choice for builds...Hardly: I see a number of reasonable choices for weapon-based monks (not just staff monks) still: - Monk/WM/Paladin(or BG): Good saves, Good crit range for good damage.
- Monk/Paladin(BG)/HS: Good saves, More attacks for good damage
- Monk/WM/HS: Max damage, lower saves.
- Monk/Fighter/(any of the other alts): More feats to help facilitate higher AB and/or more options.
Would that 4th option be common on monks using this race (or Rhek)? It depends on whether people find the extra feats useful or not. Currently, I think the first 3 options will continue to be more common, even without the free WS feats. Now, for the Staffmaster race....It needs a carrot that makes the race worth grabbing for a staffmaster. First, I think the INT and STR should be swapped around - +4 overall INT (after h-orc) isn't needed on a staffmaster, +2 overall is enough, and the extra STR would be welcome (remember, even caster-staffmasters use STR instead of INT to govern spell DCs). Second, since the regen is likely a racial perk, how about giving them +8 regen instead of +4? Or regen based on levels like Pach Lord gets? I think these changes would make the race attractive enough to take over the staff monk race above (even if the staff monk race doesn't get an extra INT penalty). A big thanks for your time in considering this. --Arek
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Post by FunkySwerve on Apr 13, 2013 18:50:17 GMT
I think if we scrap a lot of those feats, it might help compensate for that special, which is pretty darn nice. It has the upside that an SM couldn't make use of it, too, which would allow us to skip the int pen. This: The only other question you had was whether this would lock staff monks into a single choice for builds...Hardly: I see a number of reasonable choices for weapon-based monks (not just staff monks) still: - Monk/WM/Paladin(or BG): Good saves, Good crit range for good damage.
- Monk/Paladin(BG)/HS: Good saves, More attacks for good damage
- Monk/WM/HS: Max damage, lower saves.
- Monk/Fighter/(any of the other alts): More feats to help facilitate higher AB and/or more options.
Would that 4th option be common on monks using this race (or Rhek)? It depends on whether people find the extra feats useful or not. Currently, I think the first 3 options will continue to be more common, even without the free WS feats. misses the point. The concern is overall build diversity, which the Staff feats definitely crimp. I can live with that, though, though there's no way they're getting the Specs. How's this grab you? Thoughts from all welcome. Favored of Gruumesh (requires Half-Orc): +6 STR, +2 DEX, +2 CON, +4 WIS WF: QStaff, GWF: QStaff, Toughness, Armor Skin +5% to the conceal provided by Empty Body. Funky
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Post by arek on Apr 13, 2013 21:48:01 GMT
Half-Orcs already get Toughness, so your idea only gets 3 total feats, with only one of them being epic. I'd be pretty happy with Epic Prowess instead of Toughness, tho (for a total of 4 feats with 2 epic, which is similar what other melee races get), or perhaps Dodge and/or Mobility. Again, thanks for taking the time to consider this. --Arek
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Post by FunkySwerve on Apr 14, 2013 0:11:10 GMT
I specifically avoided WM feats. I feel the special is pretty nice, which is why the large number of pre-epics. Epic Prowess sounds ok, though.
Funky
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Post by desocupado on Apr 14, 2013 5:31:37 GMT
A couple of ideas:
1 - BG subrace could use another special - What about "Planar Turning" (it would distinguish them more form the Paladin/Cot Subrace) - Maybe they could have something like "always evil"
2 - A few subraces could get Harper Scout and Purple Dragon Knight skill requirements. Here a few suggestions: Harper Skills: Intutitive attack. Rapier wit and Bard Purple Dragon Knight: Divine Tank, Warchanter and BFM/DSM Melee.
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Post by arek on Apr 14, 2013 15:11:28 GMT
I'm not a balance guru, but I'm pretty sure Planar Turning is a no-go simply because the feat has so many requirements that would be bypassed by granting it to a subrace.
--Arek
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Post by FunkySwerve on Apr 14, 2013 16:31:08 GMT
A couple of ideas: 1 - BG subrace could use another special - What about "Planar Turning" (it would distinguish them more form the Paladin/Cot Subrace) - Maybe they could have something like "always evil" My initial reaction was similar to Arek's. This seems like an easy 'no'. I really like this idea, but I think that, at least with PDK, the feat is the higher barrier to entry. Given that Mounted Combat is useless on HG (at present, anyway, though there is the idea floating about of giving Pallies and BGs mounts from their summon spells), it seems like an ok add-on feat, so long as it really suits the sub. Likewise, I don't want to dump a ton of skills on classes that are going to take them anyway. So, let's list the possible handouts, first: HS requires: -feats: Alertness, Iron Will. -skills: Disc 4, Lore 6, Persuade 8, Search 4 PDK requires: -feats: Mounted Combat -skills: Intim 1, Persuade 2, Listen 1, Ride 2, Spot 2 Persuade, Search, Ride, and Spot seem like the more obvious skill bonuses, where they can be fit - Search and Intim as well, perhaps, and Lore if it fits. Of course, there is also the question of whether this is an appropriate tweak for subs. We could, for example, alter the base requirements of the prestige class instead, if we feel it appropriate. Thoughts? Funky
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Post by Torin on Apr 14, 2013 17:29:03 GMT
I would not lower any requirements for classes. But I like a lot the idea of giving a subraces all requirements for some classes. That opens up some crazy build ideas. There is an old shadowdancer build in the forums that has 7 WM, 30 SD and 3 Rogue. Its only possible with exactly one subrace (Half-Kyton: Gives feats and skillpoints that allow to take SD levels at character level 2!). I always liked that.
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Post by desocupado on Apr 14, 2013 17:34:28 GMT
BG In that case, what about Evil domain for the BG Subrace? (and perhaps Fire Domain as well). And possibly a higher Wisdom Bonus (at the cost of Str), favoring the smiter-turner builds. (and having attributes more more close to pharlan's great stat spread)
Harper Persuade 8 is the most troublesome requirement for non-divine tanks.
--Who use it: Paladins, Blackguards (Lash of Hatred have great synergy), Fighters, Monks, DwD and Barbarians are the ones that seek this class mostly.
Now when you cross the classes that get 2 skill points per level with the ones without persuade, lore and search you see where the requirement hurts the most. Cutting Persuade and Lore req by 50% would help.
Alternatively some of the Races listed above could get Alertness
PDK Indeed skills aren't the problem, well some of the subraces listed above could use the feat. I'm not sure which ones fit Lore-wise, tough it needs to have decent Charisma to be worthy. It's workable on Smiter Cots, and possibly for XDD with the current benefits.
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Post by arek on Apr 14, 2013 18:14:25 GMT
I wouldn't take PDK on an XDD, since that means you're going 5 bard/sorc, 5 PDK, and 30 RDD, which will lose you 1 attack/round even if PDK is a 1/1 bab subrace (didn't look it up).
Now if RDD were changed to require a L1-only (or possibly even subrace-specific) "enabler" feat as an alternative to taking bard/sorc, I could see something like this happening, but I'm not sure how that kind of change would affect overall balance.
--Arek
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Post by FunkySwerve on Apr 14, 2013 18:42:48 GMT
When I was talking about dropping reqs, while I posted skills as well, I was really more interested int the feats, since Mounted Combat doesn't really 'fit' many subs well save the nature-oriented ones. Further, I know the idea of taking a useless feat (MC, Alertness) to qual for a class annoys me, and I suspect it's part of the reason PDK, at least, isn't seeing much use (though obviously not the only factor, or there would be no HSs either).
I agree, though, that Alertness and MC are good candidate feats for freebies, as they're low/zero in value.
Funky
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Post by FunkySwerve on Apr 14, 2013 22:09:21 GMT
BGIn that case, what about Evil domain for the BG Subrace? (and perhaps Fire Domain as well). We can't add or subtract domains, much like FEs, unfortunately. Funky
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