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Post by versengeteriks on Feb 20, 2016 10:04:45 GMT
All good thoughts above....
I think the propensity is for people to snatch a few lvls of fighter to boost their other classes. So maybe the thing is to make it more worth while taking those higher levels of fighter at epic and Legendary.
Weapon swapping: To me its no different that choosing my next spell... I dont see the argument here.
Lack of interesting weapons: A little. Due to reasons of balancing which I understand. Most weapons have become very "samey". On the whole it makes no real difference in game terms which base weapon type you prefer. The outcome will be almost identical whatever base weapon type you choose to use. The exceptions are of course monk weapons, and finesse weapons.
Bows are the only real choice for ranged fighters. Since the other choices are poor.
For throwers there are a lot of weapon choices but the weapon strengths are not high enough to warrant me trying.
Grenade strengths too weak to make a descent grenadier.
And slingers or spear throwers? Haven't seen either in a while.
Crits: My main thought is how few crit based fighters there are. People prefer getting a regular damage over a more random variable most of the time now... Is it possible crit nerfing has gone too far?
How about introducing a called shot mechanic? Some may say crits are called shots. But how often would a spell caster need to go for a head shot?
Knockdown: past lower levels does anyone bother with this anymore?
Things that may make fighters more interesting?:
Weapon length: Is this even used in NWN? for p+p its quite handy. Not just because you can cleave 3 rows of critters at once. But also because you can stand behind a tank and still get into melee.
Initiative: Very little worth in investing in initiative boosts. Is it worth a tweak? to the mechanics of it maybe? It used to be a really important stat in p+p but is pointless in the protracted standups of HG.
Survivability and raw combat power. Completely outmatched in survivability by an ex spellcaster RDD. Highly outmatched in attacks and damage output by several other classes now.
'trix
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Post by Raj on Feb 20, 2016 10:54:26 GMT
Knockdown: past lower levels does anyone bother with this anymore? 'trix It's a very good crowd control ability with enough ab and the paragon aoe version, a lot of nasty/annoying hells and abyss enemies are not kd immune. Good to disable abyssal casters and prevent potions drinking too. Disarm is often the way to go but the pandect value is terribly inflated and in some layers there's nothing worth to disarm but plenty to kd. The underused wms, fighters and cots can and should fit both abilities at paragon rank (take disarm from feats and kd from cheaper pandect).
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Post by versengeteriks on Feb 20, 2016 13:46:21 GMT
Personally I don't think the way to boost the Melee classes lies in tweaking the items they use. But more about needing to boost the class involved.
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Post by Twilight Semner on Feb 20, 2016 14:06:19 GMT
You don't need a shield to use KD.... In any case:
"- Greater Knockdown (requires Improved Knockdown feat): All enemies in a medium radius around the fighter must succeed in a discipline check against (2 * Fighter level including LL) or be knocked down for 3 rounds. May be used 3 times per day."
Multi-target KD is already in the mod.
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Post by versengeteriks on Feb 20, 2016 18:04:15 GMT
Didn't realize...... I've been away a while.... Thx for the update......
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Post by Twilight Semner on Feb 20, 2016 18:09:27 GMT
In a similar vein:
"Disarm and Knockdown - These feats have been reworked to swift actions. When you make an attempt, you must first make a touch attack to hit your target. - If the touch attack hits, you must make an opposed AB check against the creature's Discipline + 25 (or + 15 if you have the Improved version). - If you succeed, the target will suffer the effects of the feat. - Size modifiers are no longer considered for these feats. - The Superior version of these feats allows you to make an attempt twice per round. Superior versions are Weaponmaster class feats only. - Legendary Disarm adds 2 ab to opposed disarm checks, and increases the effective range of the ability. - Legendary Knockdown adds 2 ab to opposed knockdown checks, and doubles the duration of knockdown to 3 rounds, on the main target only. - The Paragon version of these feats add 2 more ab to their respective opposed checks, and add a small area of effect, with a -10 to the opposed check for secondary targets in the area."
Not that this is an AoE but getting to do the attempts twice per round with that crazy-high WM ab means you're gonna have a lot more KD'd and Disarmed enemies.
I think a big part of the problem with "tanks" lacking versatility is that most people don't want to sacrifice zomguberdamage for the sake of adding utility. I'm not going to argue that there are necessarily enough options out there for non-casters, but there are definitely some that aren't currently being utilized to their fullest.
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Post by thomascovenant on Feb 20, 2016 20:22:02 GMT
just a idee like this why not to have in paragon lvls a feat who can allow the melee to add another type of wps focus who will give him the same as his wp focus with all others feats he already have to a second wp of his choice, then the melee will be more effective as like if he had as wp focus a longsword he could by this feat have the same of it with another wp with a different physical dmg type like a heavy hammer or morningstar, etc.
I think this will make tanks more attractive to play as a melee will be able to without sacrifice many feats to be able to use different type of wps depending of mobs he is fighting, as at paragons lvls we can say a toon should have a lot of experience in fight and he surely praticed with a different kind of wp to be more effective in combat.
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Post by drunkenboastor on Feb 21, 2016 2:31:04 GMT
Weapon swapping: To me its no different that choosing my next spell... I dont see the argument here. The automatic miss rate after swapping any equipped item makes it a difference. Swapping weapons constantly for each opponent can be a big loss of damage, not always going to use the best for each opponent. ( I don't know how to quote )
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Post by desocupado on Feb 21, 2016 11:31:52 GMT
So far 11 of the 13 voters pointed weapon buffs. I wonder if weapons buffs would work better as short lived buffs independent of weapon base damage - wiki image is not updated (1d4 +50 flat dmg) - o.e. a short lived flat CL based damage bonus akin to original weapon buffs.
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Post by Raj on Feb 21, 2016 12:47:54 GMT
Also, this topic had 500 views and there're more than 13 players on hg. Polls suck.
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Post by versengeteriks on Feb 21, 2016 16:14:45 GMT
So really what people want is Fighters that can cast spells? ??
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Post by rhodar on Feb 22, 2016 0:16:57 GMT
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the traditional role of the tank to attract and withstand damage that would otherwise go toward squishier characters, rather than to be a leading damage inflictor?
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Post by desocupado on Feb 22, 2016 3:16:47 GMT
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the traditional role of the tank to attract and withstand damage that would otherwise go toward squishier characters, rather than to be a leading damage inflictor? Traditional, yes. Good design, no. The old trinity was Tank/dps/healer. 4th edition brought leader, controller, striker and guardian. The unique twist was every class has 2 functions. Leader was heal and buff mostly Controller debuff and aoe Striker dps and burst Guardian draw agro and defense -It's video-gamey but it's an improvement. Our tanks are mostly a cross-over between guardian and striker.
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Post by woqued on Feb 22, 2016 5:06:14 GMT
woqued [2:15 PM] Question: how big a deal would it be effort-wise to remove lvl 50 requirement from the 5d12 ele 5d12 exo weapons? [2:18] It would be a pretty huge deal for tanks whether it be lvl 40 tags or the early LL runs between 40 and 50, especially for those without level-appropriate company (edited)
acaos [11:14 PM] @ woqued: can you ask that in the forums? that'd get more commentary I think, maybe in the tank thread
Opinions?
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Post by Twilight Semner on Feb 22, 2016 5:17:04 GMT
I'd give it a huge upvote, especially considering anyone can get dragged through DB and get the tag for DB weapons just to use them as low as level 40.
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