Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2016 1:33:17 GMT
Response to this post by FunkySwerve
(Decided to create a new thread for this, to avoid hijacking the discussion on Fallen/other XR subs in the original one).
I will address your questions to the very best of my ability, though there are likely others who would be able to give more comprehensive answers for the harder aspects.
Aiming to break up the post and be as concise as possible while retaining the salient points, but I get the feeling this will be a long post anyway.
Please comment if I have missed anything important/got something wrong here.
To clarify my previous post in the other thread, by 'endgame builds will get used in endgame runs' I just meant that Level 80 runs will require builds tuned to those runs' difficulty.
For example, at the moment it is possible for a high level/demi 2H Smiter to NOT use Rapier at all, opting to cop the ~10 AB penalty (from relying on non-maxed STR for AB, instead of maxed CHA) in exchange for using a better weapon such as Morningstar for a Half-Eladrin, or Halberd for a Pharlan.
This sort of choice only works because it's a Level 80 toon fighting through Level 60 runs, and would likely not be appropriate for Paragon areas - thus the necessity of a specific XR race allowing small-sized toons, if 2H is the aim.
--------------------
On the topic of build options, quick refresher course on the fundamental stat requirements for Paladin Smiters:
[1] 40 base Strength, to gain Critical Hit immunity from Death Ward.
Endgame Smiters get +20 Strength for 'free' [4 (CC Paladin) + 10 (Extra Smiting 10) + 4 (x2 Demi) + 2 (Paragon stats)], so 20 Strength after subrace edits is sufficient to meet this requirement for a Level 80 toon.
[2] 'Enough' Dexterity to pass basic checks
This is quite subjective and varies from builds to build, but tanks need to be immune to the basic trash who have Dexterity checks in the mid-high 30's (eg: Paragon Erinyes, Narzugon, Advespa, Jarilith), though its nice to break into the 40s if possible and you will always be happy to have more.
It's usually sustainable to start with ~14 base Dexterity, which can max out Effective Dexterity at 46 (with Asmo Belt/Paragon Balance/5x Abyss wins).
Point is, Dexterity penalties hurt.
[3] 15 Wisdom, to cast Extended Level 4 spells.
A pure Paladin will have minimum 11 Wisdom, so this requirement is met by default with x2 Demi.
[4] As much Charisma as possible, after all other conditions are met
Provides more dice on the Smite, as well as increased damage from Divine Might and Shield AC from Divine Shield. AB if Rapier Wit is used.
--------------------
BUR Race Options:
Need to discuss the BUR options to better understand their XR upgrades. Also including a 'summary' of the key benefits specific to Smiters (with regards to the requirements listed above).
Pharlan (Half-Elf) - +4 STR/WIS/CHA, Great Strength 1+2, Divine Might, Levitation, SR: 15 + 1/Level
Summary: +6 STR, +4 CHA, 1 Pre-Epic Feat, added bonus of Levitation, unlocked LSA: Listen
Hound Archon (Any) - +4 STR/CHA, +2 CON/WIS, Power Attack, Extra Smiting, Great Smiting 1, SR: 10 + 1/Level
Summary: +4 STR, +4 CHA, 2 Pre-Epic Feats, 1 Epic Feat + base race bonus (likely LSA: Listen from Half-Elf base)
Half-Eladrin (Gnome) - +7 STR, +5 CHA, Great Charisma 1+2, Divine Shield [Small]
Summary: +5 STR (Gnome penalty), +7 CHA, 1 Pre-Epic Feat
Half-Cloud Giant (Human) - +4 STR, -2 DEX, +2 CON, +6 CHA, Great Strength 1+2, WP: Exotic, Levitation [Large]
Summary: +6 STR, -2 DEX, +6 CHA, 1 Pre-Epic Feat (Human bonus), added bonus of Levitation
Comments:
*We immediately see that Pharlan and Hound Archon are very similar for Smiters. However, the extra feats from Hound Archon generally get mostly nullified by being 2 Strength behind compared to Pharlan (recall Requirement [1]'s need for 20 base Strength), with free Levitation and +5 SR giving Pharlan a small edge IMO.
*Half-Eladrin obviously provides the only option to go 2H while maintaining AB, via Rapier Wit.
*Half-Cloud Giant provides an option to go Large, which seems to be more of a cosmetic option than anything else. Unlike Half-Eladrin using the size change to 2H Rapier, being Large doesn't provide any significant benefit (in fact, it carries a -1 AB/AC penalty).
IMO the +2 Charisma it has over Pharlan is not worth the loss of LSA: Listen, 1 AB/AC, and 2 Dexterity (see Requirement [2]). TBH, I have never even *heard* of anyone using this race.
We will discuss XR options next.
--------------------
Ibixian:
I searched the forum for 'Ibixian' and found two relevant quotes from more experienced players (I have trimmed them a little):
- FC: Paladin / BCs: Champion of Torm, Blackguard
- STR +8, DEX -4, CON +6, CHA +2, Intimidate +4
- Free Feats: Weapon Proficiency Exotic, Great Smite I-III, Armor Skin, Toughness, Alertness
- Other: Changes size to Large, Fast, +2 vs KD checks
This seems like an utterly worthless race. +16 bonus to stats and -4 penalty. However as I mentioned earlier Dex is worth way more than Con. So this is at best equivalent to a +10 point race. The dex penalty on this is absolutely crushing in any hells+ area you'd constantly be dom by erinyes or KD by things you didn't even realize forced checks. +2 vs KD checks is not going to make up -4 vs all checks. Large size loses another 1 AC so you're going to be hurting even more. Further +2 cha only is going to make it more difficult to reach useful cha for smites anyways. Carpet tank race.
If making a large size tank is some sort of obsession, then using Dracotaur is a better answer even for a paladin, Smites wouldn't be very good on the Ibixian anyways so giving them up and going Dracotaur for better dex is a better option. If your obsession extends to a smiting large size race, Half-Cloud Giant is the answer:
It gives less dex penalty, way more cha, and just 2 less strength. Since -1 ab isn't that big a concern and cha gives more damage than strength for a divine tank this is better melee damage than Ibixian as well. More feat tight but that's not that big an issue. It also throws in the ever useful levitation.
--------------------
Yeah large size divine tanks don't really exist in my experience and they are a fail build. The race is going to be furchin regardless. There's no advantage to a large size divine tank at all, and I don't really think it's worth making a reason for them to exist either. I'd personally rather just delete the race and stop people from building large size divine tanks that invariably suck.
I was trying to point out why it sucks compared to other races though, not as a concept of build
The problem is that the bur subrace is already weak because it's the build concept that doesn't work (or better said, it works worse than a classic medium sized toon)
Anyway, the BUR subbie at least adds +6 charisma, making smiting easier to achieve, the +2 on the XR is a bit of a joke. I'd modify as follow:
This way it's at least a clear upgrade over the BUR version: same final str considering the feats, so it's +2 charisma, 2 smite feats, 1 must have feat and two next to useless ones in exchange for levitation.A good starting point for discussion of Ibixian edits is probably Raj's suggestion (highlighted in green).
--------------------
Other Smiter XRs:
Alu-Fiend (Half-Elf) - +2 STR/DEX/CON/INT, +6 CHA, WF/GWF/EWF/WS/EWS: Rapier, Rapier Wit, Mounted Combat, Charm Immunity
Summary: +2 STR, +2 DEX, +6 CHA, 3 Pre-Epic Feats (though GWF is not mandatory), 1 Epic Feat, unlocks Weapon Specialisation Tree
Solarborn [Male] (Half-Elf) - +6 STR, +2 INT/WIS, +4 CHA, Divine Might, Divine Shield, Extra Smiting, Great Smite I-II, Mounted Combat, Divine Immunity +25%, Survival: Levitation
Summary: +6 STR, +4 CHA, 3 Pre-Epic Feats, 2 Epic Feats, added bonus of 25% Divine Immunity + Levitation
Comments:
*Solarborn is the clear upgrade of Pharlan/Hound Archon, with Alu-Fiend being a new niche Rapier-focused option.
*Solarborn seems like the better choice for Smiters (to my eye, anyway). On further inspection (and some rough paper build planning), I think they are two separate 'flavours' without one being necessarily better or worse overall. An Alu-Fiend filling out the Weapon Specialisation tree ends up several feats behind a Solarborn which likely causes a loss of Charisma (~4-6 points?), on top of losing 25% Divine and free Levitation. But +20 damage and +2 Dexterity are very tasty indeed...
*In terms of 'alternatives' for 2H Rapier-users, there is currently NO alternative at the XR tier at all, so the next best choice is sticking with the BUR Half-Eladrin.
--------------------
Proposed Half-Shiradi Statting:
Sticking to the proposal by Twilight Semner for now.
Half-Eladrin (Gnome) - +7 STR, +5 CHA, Great Charisma 1+2, Divine Shield [Small]
Summary: +5 STR (Gnome penalty), +7 CHA, 1 Pre-Epic Feat
-->
Half-Shiradi (Gnome) - +8 STR, +6 CHA, Divine Might, Divine Shield, Extra Smiting, Armor Skin, Epic Prowess, Mounted Combat, Levitation [Small]
Summary: +6 STR (Gnome penalty), +6 CHA, 3 Pre-Epic Feats, 2 Epic Feats, added bonus of Levitation
So the difference is +1 STR, -1 CHA, +2 Pre-Epic Feats, +2 Epic Feats, Levitation.
Comments:
*There actually isn't a notable upgrade from BUR -> XR in terms of stats.
*If the Devastating Critical Route is not taken, there is no need to take Power Attack since both Divine Might and Divine Shield have been given for free, so these builds effectively get +1 free Pre-Epic feat.
Anyway, I am relatively satisfied with the current suggestion as it is - the total numbers seem to be in line with the non-2H option, Solarborn.
But it would be nice for there to be more discussion about possible alternatives/ideas here.
(Decided to create a new thread for this, to avoid hijacking the discussion on Fallen/other XR subs in the original one).
I will address your questions to the very best of my ability, though there are likely others who would be able to give more comprehensive answers for the harder aspects.
Aiming to break up the post and be as concise as possible while retaining the salient points, but I get the feeling this will be a long post anyway.
Please comment if I have missed anything important/got something wrong here.
To clarify my previous post in the other thread, by 'endgame builds will get used in endgame runs' I just meant that Level 80 runs will require builds tuned to those runs' difficulty.
For example, at the moment it is possible for a high level/demi 2H Smiter to NOT use Rapier at all, opting to cop the ~10 AB penalty (from relying on non-maxed STR for AB, instead of maxed CHA) in exchange for using a better weapon such as Morningstar for a Half-Eladrin, or Halberd for a Pharlan.
This sort of choice only works because it's a Level 80 toon fighting through Level 60 runs, and would likely not be appropriate for Paragon areas - thus the necessity of a specific XR race allowing small-sized toons, if 2H is the aim.
--------------------
On the topic of build options, quick refresher course on the fundamental stat requirements for Paladin Smiters:
[1] 40 base Strength, to gain Critical Hit immunity from Death Ward.
Endgame Smiters get +20 Strength for 'free' [4 (CC Paladin) + 10 (Extra Smiting 10) + 4 (x2 Demi) + 2 (Paragon stats)], so 20 Strength after subrace edits is sufficient to meet this requirement for a Level 80 toon.
[2] 'Enough' Dexterity to pass basic checks
This is quite subjective and varies from builds to build, but tanks need to be immune to the basic trash who have Dexterity checks in the mid-high 30's (eg: Paragon Erinyes, Narzugon, Advespa, Jarilith), though its nice to break into the 40s if possible and you will always be happy to have more.
It's usually sustainable to start with ~14 base Dexterity, which can max out Effective Dexterity at 46 (with Asmo Belt/Paragon Balance/5x Abyss wins).
Point is, Dexterity penalties hurt.
[3] 15 Wisdom, to cast Extended Level 4 spells.
A pure Paladin will have minimum 11 Wisdom, so this requirement is met by default with x2 Demi.
[4] As much Charisma as possible, after all other conditions are met
Provides more dice on the Smite, as well as increased damage from Divine Might and Shield AC from Divine Shield. AB if Rapier Wit is used.
--------------------
BUR Race Options:
Need to discuss the BUR options to better understand their XR upgrades. Also including a 'summary' of the key benefits specific to Smiters (with regards to the requirements listed above).
Pharlan (Half-Elf) - +4 STR/WIS/CHA, Great Strength 1+2, Divine Might, Levitation, SR: 15 + 1/Level
Summary: +6 STR, +4 CHA, 1 Pre-Epic Feat, added bonus of Levitation, unlocked LSA: Listen
Hound Archon (Any) - +4 STR/CHA, +2 CON/WIS, Power Attack, Extra Smiting, Great Smiting 1, SR: 10 + 1/Level
Summary: +4 STR, +4 CHA, 2 Pre-Epic Feats, 1 Epic Feat + base race bonus (likely LSA: Listen from Half-Elf base)
Half-Eladrin (Gnome) - +7 STR, +5 CHA, Great Charisma 1+2, Divine Shield [Small]
Summary: +5 STR (Gnome penalty), +7 CHA, 1 Pre-Epic Feat
Half-Cloud Giant (Human) - +4 STR, -2 DEX, +2 CON, +6 CHA, Great Strength 1+2, WP: Exotic, Levitation [Large]
Summary: +6 STR, -2 DEX, +6 CHA, 1 Pre-Epic Feat (Human bonus), added bonus of Levitation
Comments:
*We immediately see that Pharlan and Hound Archon are very similar for Smiters. However, the extra feats from Hound Archon generally get mostly nullified by being 2 Strength behind compared to Pharlan (recall Requirement [1]'s need for 20 base Strength), with free Levitation and +5 SR giving Pharlan a small edge IMO.
*Half-Eladrin obviously provides the only option to go 2H while maintaining AB, via Rapier Wit.
*Half-Cloud Giant provides an option to go Large, which seems to be more of a cosmetic option than anything else. Unlike Half-Eladrin using the size change to 2H Rapier, being Large doesn't provide any significant benefit (in fact, it carries a -1 AB/AC penalty).
IMO the +2 Charisma it has over Pharlan is not worth the loss of LSA: Listen, 1 AB/AC, and 2 Dexterity (see Requirement [2]). TBH, I have never even *heard* of anyone using this race.
We will discuss XR options next.
--------------------
Ibixian:
I searched the forum for 'Ibixian' and found two relevant quotes from more experienced players (I have trimmed them a little):
"Ibixian" (secret eXtremely Rare; changes Appearance)
- FC: Paladin / BCs: Champion of Torm, Blackguard
- STR +8, DEX -4, CON +6, CHA +2, Intimidate +4
- Free Feats: Weapon Proficiency Exotic, Great Smite I-III, Armor Skin, Toughness, Alertness
- Other: Changes size to Large, Fast, +2 vs KD checks
This seems like an utterly worthless race. +16 bonus to stats and -4 penalty. However as I mentioned earlier Dex is worth way more than Con. So this is at best equivalent to a +10 point race. The dex penalty on this is absolutely crushing in any hells+ area you'd constantly be dom by erinyes or KD by things you didn't even realize forced checks. +2 vs KD checks is not going to make up -4 vs all checks. Large size loses another 1 AC so you're going to be hurting even more. Further +2 cha only is going to make it more difficult to reach useful cha for smites anyways. Carpet tank race.
If making a large size tank is some sort of obsession, then using Dracotaur is a better answer even for a paladin, Smites wouldn't be very good on the Ibixian anyways so giving them up and going Dracotaur for better dex is a better option. If your obsession extends to a smiting large size race, Half-Cloud Giant is the answer:
It gives less dex penalty, way more cha, and just 2 less strength. Since -1 ab isn't that big a concern and cha gives more damage than strength for a divine tank this is better melee damage than Ibixian as well. More feat tight but that's not that big an issue. It also throws in the ever useful levitation.
--------------------
Yeah large size divine tanks don't really exist in my experience and they are a fail build. The race is going to be furchin regardless. There's no advantage to a large size divine tank at all, and I don't really think it's worth making a reason for them to exist either. I'd personally rather just delete the race and stop people from building large size divine tanks that invariably suck.
I was trying to point out why it sucks compared to other races though, not as a concept of build
Feb 25, 2014 15:48:18 GMT Raj said:
[Ibixian] really sux. It's more a issue of large size divine tanks (who the hell came out with such fail build idea? ), because afterall Funky wanted XRs to be a direct upgrade to existing BURs, so Ibixian is going to be the Half-Cloud Giant upgrade.The problem is that the bur subrace is already weak because it's the build concept that doesn't work (or better said, it works worse than a classic medium sized toon)
Anyway, the BUR subbie at least adds +6 charisma, making smiting easier to achieve, the +2 on the XR is a bit of a joke. I'd modify as follow:
"Ibixian" (secret eXtremely Rare; changes Appearance)
- FC: Paladin / BCs: Champion of Torm, Blackguard
- STR +6, DEX -2, CON +2, CHA +8, Intimidate +4
- Free Feats: Weapon Proficiency Exotic, Great Smite I-II, Armor Skin, Toughness, Alertness
- Other: Changes size to Large, Fast, +2 vs KD checks
- FC: Paladin / BCs: Champion of Torm, Blackguard
- STR +6, DEX -2, CON +2, CHA +8, Intimidate +4
- Free Feats: Weapon Proficiency Exotic, Great Smite I-II, Armor Skin, Toughness, Alertness
- Other: Changes size to Large, Fast, +2 vs KD checks
--------------------
Other Smiter XRs:
Alu-Fiend (Half-Elf) - +2 STR/DEX/CON/INT, +6 CHA, WF/GWF/EWF/WS/EWS: Rapier, Rapier Wit, Mounted Combat, Charm Immunity
Summary: +2 STR, +2 DEX, +6 CHA, 3 Pre-Epic Feats (though GWF is not mandatory), 1 Epic Feat, unlocks Weapon Specialisation Tree
Solarborn [Male] (Half-Elf) - +6 STR, +2 INT/WIS, +4 CHA, Divine Might, Divine Shield, Extra Smiting, Great Smite I-II, Mounted Combat, Divine Immunity +25%, Survival: Levitation
Summary: +6 STR, +4 CHA, 3 Pre-Epic Feats, 2 Epic Feats, added bonus of 25% Divine Immunity + Levitation
Comments:
*Solarborn is the clear upgrade of Pharlan/Hound Archon, with Alu-Fiend being a new niche Rapier-focused option.
*
*In terms of 'alternatives' for 2H Rapier-users, there is currently NO alternative at the XR tier at all, so the next best choice is sticking with the BUR Half-Eladrin.
--------------------
Proposed Half-Shiradi Statting:
Sticking to the proposal by Twilight Semner for now.
Half-Eladrin (Gnome) - +7 STR, +5 CHA, Great Charisma 1+2, Divine Shield [Small]
Summary: +5 STR (Gnome penalty), +7 CHA, 1 Pre-Epic Feat
-->
Half-Shiradi (Gnome) - +8 STR, +6 CHA, Divine Might, Divine Shield, Extra Smiting, Armor Skin, Epic Prowess, Mounted Combat, Levitation [Small]
Summary: +6 STR (Gnome penalty), +6 CHA, 3 Pre-Epic Feats, 2 Epic Feats, added bonus of Levitation
So the difference is +1 STR, -1 CHA, +2 Pre-Epic Feats, +2 Epic Feats, Levitation.
Comments:
*There actually isn't a notable upgrade from BUR -> XR in terms of stats.
*If the Devastating Critical Route is not taken, there is no need to take Power Attack since both Divine Might and Divine Shield have been given for free, so these builds effectively get +1 free Pre-Epic feat.
Anyway, I am relatively satisfied with the current suggestion as it is - the total numbers seem to be in line with the non-2H option, Solarborn.
But it would be nice for there to be more discussion about possible alternatives/ideas here.