Speedrunning Immortality

[chirality]

Sept 25, 2006 9:57:22 GMT FunkySwerve said:

No, grapple and hold are based on ability modifer and casterlevel, not focuses. You still want pen feats on these those to beat sr.
Funky

Jun 7, 2006 19:11:15 GMT FunkySwerve said:

It is a check against the full ac, but any caster worth their salt is unlikely to fail against a mob of any kind. Not sure what you thought the check was, but I'll set it out:
Grapple Hit
If caster ability mod (CHA, INT, or STR depending) + casterlevel +d20 + 11 is greater than the targets ac, the grapple hits. This was nearly impossible to fail even before LL were counted in casterlevel. Highest AC in the mod = 70ish atm. Level 40 + 25mod (26 maybe, but whatever) + 11 + d20 is minimum 77 for a lvl 60 caster with maxed ability. The current modifications (as of next update) bring that to a minimum of 60+25(26, maybe) + 11 + d20 = 97.

Grapple Check
Nearly identical. If caster ability mod (CHA, INT, or STR depending) + casterlevel +d20 + 16 is greater than the targets ac, the grapple check succeeds. mins 82 and 102 respectively.

The different spells use those checks differently. Level 9, for instance, requires both a hit and a check for the target to be effected, only checked once. Pretty much impossible to miss, as is the case with the rest of the spells. I'd drop them for bewing so overpowered if they weren't already in the default version, and I still may, but it isn't really a priority. You may note that it could still prove challenging to hit pcs, but that is entirely attributable to to the ab/ac gap on HG. Subtracting the standard 40 for guild combat yeilds a spell that is every bit as overpowered as the original.
Funky

maybe your wizard's int is just a little low? i never had trouble landing even quite under level caps (don't think i ever needed to cast more than 4 on a dragon, and if 3 failed it's prolly cuz doing lith at L25, and underlevelled those tough SR checks are main issue anyway)

having crappy grabs/evard AB is just part of lowbie wis theurge package, but tbh i wondered why you didn't just make a regular mage in the first place

[johannhowitzer]

I'm starting to play around with other build ideas. Being a partial Cleric is nice for a lot of reasons:

- Harm and Heal are great for quick kills of some tough enemies (Hall of Kings comes to mind)
- Inflict spells can be, as we've seen, scarily fast at killing things. And with both of these things, touch attacks are a great option to have.
- With limited spellslots, the extra full spellbook is really handy, and Destruction is a very nice kill-everything spell.
- Creeping Doom inflicts give a lot of mileage on late-game stuff for only a few spellslots.
- Many, many reliable buffs for AC, opening up a lot of gear options.
- Crit ring is very valuable against some key foes, including the Immortal.
- Silence shuts down many, many foes. In conjunction with Vocalize and/or Silent Spell, this is incredibly strong as a general caster counter. This makes so many bosses so much easier that it requires a wide variety of options to make up for.


However, most of these things can be kept in some version with Arcane Theurge. As far as I can tell, this option really just loses spellslots, especially on 8th and 9th levels, and also loses Implosion. Implosion wasn't terribly powerful anyway, with Theurge balance requirement and -2 WIS subrace. In return, I would automatically gain Bigby Swarm at 40 thanks to needing Conjuration for Supergate! This solves the grapple problem in one stroke; Bigby Swarm is perhaps the single most powerful control spell against the Aspects of Lolth. It also frees up my third class from Rogue, since Pixie will be stronger and I could even take full crossclass OL/DT/Search if I want, might be stronger than Pixie. Good options for third class would then be:

- Monk: retains Tumble, picks up Discipline, small save boost (safety vs Ruinspam), probably can't go robes though
- Bard: retains Tumble, picks up Discipline and UMD
- Paladin: disappointing, but does get Discipline, Fear immunity, and a few save points - not much due to -2 CHA

As I'm using reincarnation before immortality, I could also mix up the subrace when switching to Theurge. PT - Air Genasi's experience bonus will have mostly done its work by then, as the remainder of the leveling will largely be covered through endgame quests and the book from Zerya. However, given the All Tags requirement of the speedrun, if I pick something without Levitation, I will have to get the ring. I currently can't find an option that presents enough of an advantage to warrant the switch. Experience boost from Air Genasi will still be nonzero after reincarnation, thanks to needing to clear such areas as Zhentarim Outpost, Shadow Morgue, and Shrike Tunnels.



Pariah, Herald, and Slinger are completely off the table now, since Supergate is required. Any build I do MUST have 17 Wiz, ESF Conj, and Conj spec. That's not negotiable. Straight Wizard could have a long shot at edging out Theurge in the end, we'll see. I will try throwing together an Arcane Theurge build with what I've learned since I started this, and see what I think. Autostill 3 is still a necessity since you just can't do without strong AC in the ring versus the Immortal and MOAD, lacking legendary-grade EV concealment.

Seriously, wait until you see a demo of some *real* routing. I think Supergate is going to surprise some people; I'm really excited about it.

[simpetar]

Aug 2, 2016 19:21:35 GMT johannhowitzer said:

Pariah, Herald, and Slinger are completely off the table now, since Supergate is required.

As far as Gate goes, Heralds get ESF: Conjuration free plus another rank for specialization. Not sure if that qualifies them for teleporting between areas prior to CL 41, but the range is very long - it can get you from one end of Fox Ridge to the other.

[johannhowitzer]

It probably does qualify them for it. I admit Herald is one quasi I don't know very much about. Teleporting between areas is a requirement, though - on top of saving absurd amounts of time in many places, it is also necessary to rest during the MOAD fight, as far as I've been able to work out.

[condude]

Woops, nevermind, didn't read the whole thread before responding.

[johannhowitzer]

Okay, the arcane build I drew up so far has the following:

Starting INT 18(20), WIS 16(14), rest in CON
Take WIS at 4-16, INT at 20-40

Wizard 17 and Cleric 13 by level 30 to get both Wizard 9th and Cleric 7th (Destruction) by 30 tags
Bard at 40 for Tumble, Discipline, UMD
Plant, War domains
Specialist in Conjuration, bars Enchantment and Divination

Skills: Concentration, Disable Trap(CC), Discipline, Heal, Lore, Open Lock(CC), Search(CC), Tumble(40), Use Magic Device

Feats:
Still, Autostill 3
Extend, Silent, Empower, Maximize
ESP, ESF Conjuration, ESF Illusion, ESF Necro
One free feat, can get Toughness, Epic Fortitude, or drop a meta for 2x Great Intelligence

HG Epic Spells: Bigby Swarm, Starfire, Death of Magic


Thoughts

- All three one-level metas might seem strange, but Still is required for Autostill, which will be necessary for enough AC to survive solo. Extend could potentially be dropped but represents a large degree of safety in some situations when used with GV, Displacement, and the like. Silent is super convenient for setting up on bosses without Vocalize, which will be barred with Enchantment. Timestop could be used in its place, but carries different risks.

- Conjuration school is required, and Evocation school shouldn't be necessary, especially as it doesn't affect Bigby spells. Illusion retains a strong Weird as well as a functional GV. Necromancy can be very useful especially with access to Prayer and Battletide, even without testing I remember death magic can be of great use in some late game areas, such as the Drow Slums.

- Of schools barred, Enchantment loses Rebuke, Vocalize, and Hold Monster. Divination loses Power Word Kill and Power Word Stun, as well as Legend Lore, while Premonition wouldn't work in armor anyway. Of schools not focused in, Abjuration would boost Energy Immunity, Evocation would provide a few more damage spell options (though Conjuration covers this pretty nicely), as well as Sunburst DC which will be high enough anyway, and Transmutation would give Transmute Barrier as well as a functional Disintegrate and Flesh to Stone.

- Epics gained are perhaps the best I could hope for, although Contingency would have been nice. Bigby Swarm brings Lolth to her knees, and Death of Magic may seem difficult to time, BUT remember I'm a speedrunner and I plan things, and I have Maximize Spell. I have some ideas about how to prevent the Immortal healing on me, skipping a third of the fight - not to mention having more measures to deal with Lolth's spider forms. Transmute Barrier looks like it would open a lot more build options on paper, keeping the Immortal and Lolth off me, however, it's only available at 40, and I have a lot more threats to deal with for which strong AC is a great help.


Overall, Arcane Theurge seems like an extremely solid choice.

[Li'l Rose]

Just thought I would mention that the !despecialize command seems to have been disabled. I tried to use it on my wizard, and it told me I cannot remove my specialization.

[simpetar]

Aug 4, 2016 14:39:26 GMT Li'l Rose said:

Just thought I would mention that the !despecialize command seems to have been disabled. I tried to use it on my wizard, and it told me I cannot remove my specialization.

It was impletented only to fix the situation when you (by accident?) had epic spell in a barred school - the most common example is PM with Divination barred who had Contingency. You cannot despecialize at will.

[johannhowitzer]

Well, I'm glad I tested this. Reincarnated a character that did not have Hive Mother Beetle tag, killed Hive Mother Beetle before reclaiming tags, then reclaimed tags and Hive Mother Beetle tag disappeared.

I guess that's a good thing - it means I won't have to consider which tags to get after reinc during the releveling process. Makes the routing a little simpler.

[johannhowitzer]

Random notes about 30-35 stuff I've been testing. A lot is still being done on this project, it's just that most of what I'm doing right now wouldn't be interesting to post here.

First, a solid Mother of the Corn strategy:

- For kids, Stoneskin, Freedom of Movement, and empowered Elemental Shield, Death Armor, and Mestil's Acid Sheath. I believe Freedom of Movement spell blocks Quivering Palm? I was never extremely clear on what their Quivering Palm and Stunning Fist can be blocked by. Freedom property on items definitely doesn't block Stunning Fist.

- For mother, spawn under GS, then Timestop, grab mom and all five Nest Guards, throw down maxed Evards and Vortex, along with Creeping Doom. When Nest Guards die, unload IGMS. Reverse Gravity does nothing to her, while Bigby 8 can deal some damage if you can get a good roll... though I think empowered IGMS is still better.



Razhid should, I think, be fought before reincarnation. Strategy for his tomb is Sunburst / Undeath to Death; without a functional Implosion, Sunburst is the only way to quickly handle the Guards. Dragon is a simple grab and missile strategy. Razhid himself, spawn under GS, then Timestop, mord, and spam grabs. Timestop blocks his mantle refresh. Have two Gates prepped, and if the grabs won't land, you can Gate to town, rest, Gate back under GS, and try again.

On the subject of Timestop, I wasn't aware of an interesting mechanic that makes using it trickier (I never really used it before working on this speedrun). 30 second cooldown on first cast, can't be brought off cooldown by resting. Every Timestop on the same map after that increases the cooldown by 15 seconds, until the server resets. This places diminishing returns on Zhent grinding. What this means for the speedrun, I think, is that Zhent grinding will be a bit more rationed, the masses will have to be bigger to reduce number of casts, and other grinding spots will have to be thrown in to take the edge off. Plains of War should be cleared whenever passing through, for sure. Bone Horde could also be an option, especially as it won't lose much time to get down there, given the fact that I will need to go to Hall of Kings eventually anyway. Also, some of the leveling will definitely come from walking to tags - Blood Moor and Razhid are great examples, and can definitely be done before 30, and both favor staying straight Wizard leveling build, not doing them after reincarnation, since more level 9 slots is helpful in both places.



Interesting thing I thought of while talking ingame with fallenwizard, and I tested it and it works - the Zerya leveling book can be used twice. At 30, I would go kill Zerya and get the tag, grab the book, change alignment if necessary, use the book, then scribe any scrolls I need to carry over to Theurge before reincarnating. This XP expense to scribe will be absolutely free. After reincarnating, take level ONLY TO 30, then gear up and go kill Zerya again, THEN go back to the light and reclaim tags. You end up level 32.5, and the second time, you only need to kill Zerya. In fact, you don't even need to kill the enemies in her room; you can run down there, set Gate position, spawn just the Kurai in her room, teleport to town, do shopping to set up Theurge, then Gate back when they've despawned, and then of course resting during Zerya fight is free with Gate.

This trick wouldn't really be practical for someone just leveling through immortality. Often you're with a party when defeating Zerya, it's only practical to solo as a mage, let alone twice, and it can be pretty tedious and annoying without a gameplan going in. Nobody's really going to have Supergate either when leveling up, at least I've never seen anyone use that back when I played normal and hardcore outside of speedrunning; this means people would have to contend with the Kurai again. Plus, the second use of the book is weaker, since you only gain one level, not a level and a half. I suppose you could hold off reclaiming tags and level to 32 first, and I might consider that, but that also means you can't do any tags during that time, since you will lose them on reclaiming tags anyway.



Supergate and Timestop are a match made in heaven, seriously. If not for the need for serious AC and all the extra little benefits Cleric comes with, straight mage would definitely be way ahead of all competition for ultimate speedrunning build.

[johannhowitzer]

I've decided to start making some of my more readable notes public via Google Drive. Anyone is welcome to nitpick or otherwise make suggestions based on anything you see in here, of course. The only reason I haven't released more info than this is that the rest would be pretty tedious and boring, it's just endless charts of gear and spellschools and build stuff... the information I'm gathering that will be of general usefulness (such as set drop locations) will be made public in some form when it's done.

docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1XYwcLgvGhuMZ42MUCy8g-7CRFfuIr50UeNupcDfaaE0/edit?usp=sharing

[condude]

Just a thought, but is a raven/pall/ratcatcher/locket run worth it early on? 4 quests in about 3-5 minutes should be pretty decent bang for your buck.

[johannhowitzer]

That's 8500 XP maximum, so yes, I think those quests should maybe be a part of the opening game. Thanks for pointing that out.

One important consideration through all of this is how much those quests drop the kill exp I'll be getting from then onward. If I were simply to develop a route, then graft those quests in with no changes anywhere else, the exp gain they represent will be countered immediately by lower kill exp. Turning them in at level 7, for example, and immediately jumping to level 8, means that the same amount of Taro at the Farm will yield about 8% less exp overall. Since I'm at a higher level anyway, you could definitely say I came out ahead, and can drop some kills later... it's just a complicated question, despite the fact that 8500 seems like a lot of exp.

That's actually what makes this leveling process such a complex matter - the tension between quest and kill. A balance has to be struck, where quests are turned in as late as possible, and kills happen as early as possible, while timing everything to land at important thresholds (such as level 18 for requisite Zhent killing spells) exactly and with near-zero waste. I'm thankful that so many quests are directly in my path, and the question of a detour doesn't even have to come up - stuff like the four quests on the way to the Lava King are sure to be a time gain.

Supergate plays a big part in all this, too. When to set gate positions, when to warp back to them, when it's better to keep a gate position instead of overwriting it... if I had the ability to set a gate in the crypt by the stairs down to floor 3 when getting these quests, they would be a GUARANTEE to be in the route, since I could use that gate later to jump straight to Dracolich.

I think what's most important is really to identify the breaking points and optimize just for them at first, like level 18 as I just mentioned. Other breaking points include initial tag run at 7-10, learning COD at level 12, the point where Sunburst can overcome turn resistance in the Plains of War, Supergate at level 21, reincarnation at level 30 (which resets all quest progress and I can redo any quest I already did), and Automatic Still Spell 3 at level 33. Certain tags will dictate leveling strategy as well, as noted in the google doc - some levels may be held to remain at a tag's level before bursting to a later level for a harder tag nearby.


Sorry, that became a treatise. I *think* the answer to your question is probably yes.

[johannhowitzer]

If anyone's interested in stopping by, I'm streaming endgame routing stuff right now:

www.twitch.tv/johannhowitzer

If all goes well, tomorrow I might try a rough full run.

[johannhowitzer]

Still plenty of work left to do so I'm not sure when a full run can happen... my eyes were a little bigger than my time or motivation when I said possible full run last post. But I did get a lot of work done this weekend.


On the bright side, some things are coming along very well! I already knew Angus was vulnerable to Electrical damage; I can kill him in 6-7 spells now. Empowered Static Field, two Maxed Ball Lightning, Timestop, then Maxed Ball Lightning until he dies. Don't even have to clear the room before starting on him since I'm not using something like IGMS. I worked on more 35s tonight, and the Shadow Pontiff appears to be susceptible to a similar strategy, though I haven't tested it yet. The Morgue is a really long slog, and has a super fast respawn. That place is going to take some intense planning. I was happy to find I have a very fast, reliable way to kill the elementals in there, though - Prismatic Spray decimates them. No worries about the Implosions either, as Spell Resistance completely blocks it. For the rest, grab and drop evards, then keep moving while things die. I think I might be able to do both Tomb and Morgue in about 6-8 rests, maybe even less with good spellslot items.

EDIT: Confirmed Pontiff kill in eight spells. Max Freezing Fog, three Max Ball Lightning, Timestop, finish with Max IGMS. Timestop + Maximize Spell is proving to be better than Pick Pocket!

I've run into some inconsistency with Gate resting - specifically, it despawned Zerya a couple times. I don't know if the despawn timer there is shorter, haven't had that problem anywhere else. The good news is that Gate makes despawns or failed boss loot drops a bit more forgiving, since I can set Gate there and do other things, then just kill the boss again. Should be a lifesaver for Gift of Undeath, and as that ring is so incredibly important to this run, I will likely plan things to happen after Lith that don't benefit strongly from Gate, so it won't cause a conflict if I have to Gate back to him for a second round.

Hel, Fenris, and Jormundgard appear to be spell immune to everything but Vortex. I can drop a badger and let it eat the timestops while I buff up... the kill strategy is so far just buy a Resonating weapon and use Tenser's Transformation (which, as it turns out, scales far better than Divine Power). My AB is pathetic at this stage, but it was a huge mercy that their AC is equally pathetic. Bugs might work once one or two bosses are dead, but they are HEAVILY physical immune, and with three targets, the bugs expire long before poking through.

I have loose notes for the rest of the tag strategies, as well as a FULL RUN flow outline now! The end tags are combined into some very long, sweeping trips - for example, I plan to go Glithildhoul - Drider Chief - Deadpool - Xulrae - Handmaiden - Headmaster - Five Matrons - Lolth. 38 tags conveniently end at Axilar, which dumps me right next to Wastalgraniq and the Arcane Academy, my first stop at 40 for epics. The plan is to spawn the Sunken City, then set Gate and go do the final quest turn-in, despawning all the Ssithrak. Speaking of Gate again, I also plan to set Gate by the planar pedestal and recharge it between Lolth and Immortal runs.

A lot of the tags coming up I expect to be simple to plan. Shrikes are Wail / Harm, Axilar is grab and smash his face, BDK probably Timestop and grab things then Weird or something, Heal is very useful at Ancient Kings. Ancient Kings is second stop after getting epics, for Humbaba's Cruel Heart. Not sure if the chest that drops that armor respawns... if it doesn't, that's going to be luck, otherwise I can Gate back for a second attempt. Fantastic armor so I hope I have a reliable way to get it! And speaking of loot, late in the game my main goal will be to get one of two drops, either a Wizard or Cleric slot belt. Off the top of my head, that's the only random drop I might be relying on getting at some point, but there are many chances to get it along the way. If I don't end up pumping Wisdom to 19, Cleric slot belt is far less useful, no Empowered Destruction or bugs.


One plan I have with this run is to submit it to RPG Limit Break 2017, an RPG speedrunning charity fundraiser marathon held in Utah. Submission deadline should be in about 4-6 weeks from what I've heard. So, first full run has to happen before then.