Limbo is here.

[Deleted]

Since I first joined the server, and for many years before that, MANY players have been 'waiting for Limbo'.

"This game is too easy!"
"There's no challenge anymore!"
"We need Paragon areas for our Paragon characters to play in!"
"We need LIMBO!"

Limbo is here.
It has been here for two weeks now... but for most players it may as well not be in the game, because outside of guilds, it is barely being run.
If you check the !chat/!runmsg history in Webdash, Limbo is basically not being mentioned anymore. I admit that I'm not observing 24/7 so I could be missing runs, but by my count there were a small handful of PUG/guild run attempts in the first week, and I believe there has been almost none in the second week.
One of the first complaints was that it was too hard due to Paragon counts; demi-shackling was introduced very quickly, yet doesn't seem to have changed anything.

I cannot give a perfect answer as to why this is, because I am one of the guilded players running it. But my gut feeling is that it isn't getting run because the average player doesn't find it rewarding enough to be worth the hassle - a fair few players did try it once, but seemed to find it difficult and probably felt they got nothing from it (if P1 is cancelled early, the reward is ~3 canopics per player and NO sets), so never bothered returning.
The purpose of this thread is to open up discussion on this point.
Yes, we all know the argument that "as people get more familiar with Limbo, run-efficiency will increase thus the rewards will increase". This logic is only true IF players are actually attempting the run, which doesn't appear to be the case for the majority of the server.

[I'm going to pause here and pre-emptively strike to shut down any possible comments like "why don't you guilded players take everyone else through the run?" The simple answer is that if the ONLY WAY for runs to get finished are guilds dragging others through them, then it's a failure of the system.]

Before we proceed, some basic information about Limbo and it's rewards:
*One of the main rewards of Limbo is the Canopic, used to unlock XR items.
XRs are great, with their base items being significantly better than BURs. But players that Limbo should appeal to have collected and hoarded BURs for several years, and tend to use extremely well-randomized items at the moment. Of the handful of XR items currently in circulation, I believe most of them aren't actually being used because well-randomized BURs are better.
This was always expected, and isn't necessarily a bad thing. It just means that '1 random XR' isn't a great reward, you need multiple XRs before you get something that you will want to use over your current equipment.
-> Pulling a figure out of the air for this discussion, let's just say that for every 3 XRs you get, only one of them will be an immediate upgrade for your current gear (this could be either an over or under-estimate).
So essentially we get 1 'usable XR' per 150 canopics.

*P2 is *much* harder than P1, but even when mastered I suspect the canopic:time ratio will not be vastly different from P1.
For the purposes of this discussion, let's ignore P2 and focus entirely on P1, because PUG runs will realistically not be able to finish P2 for a long time.

*Duration of P1 varies according to group composition/experience, reasonable numbers are between 75-180 minutes. My personal opinion is that it would take MONTHS of solid play before the average PUG is able to finish P1 in under 90 minutes.

*Rough* calculations for Limbo rewards:

*Average PUG size is ~8 players.
*Average Limbo P1 run drops ~50 Canopics -> 7 Canopics each
*1/8 chance to win the P1 set, 2/8 chance to win P1 weapons (Note: 50+ weapons in the game, the chance of getting a weapon you can immediately use is extremely slim)

Going with the previous assumption of '3x Random XRs to get something good', we need 150 canopics = 21 P1 runs

Taking the best case scenario of 90 minute P1's (this is VERY optimistic for an 8-man PUG, even with experience)
21 P1's x 90 minutes = 32 hours

32 hours of play = 1 usable XR + 2-3 set pieces + 1 immediately usable weapon (if you're lucky!)
[Remember: This is likely a huge UNDERESTIMATE of time for PUG runs!]

By contrast, in 32 hours of play those same pickup groups could likely finish 3x full Hell-cycles, or 2x full Abyss cycles (getting a LOT of Set Loot/BURs/Gold in the process).
Simply put, the reward:time ratio for Limbo is abysmally low, and I *think* that this is the main reason so few players are bothering to go in there.

From the point of view of an average player, they would be entering a new and scary place, possibly Fugue'ing and losing items/gold, playing with a high chance of total wipe.
Even if they grind through it patiently and eventually learn the map, the rewards are close to non-existant, so why bother?

Is my opinion skewed, because I run it with a guild? Yes, I am just guessing here.
Is my 'guess' for why Limbo isn't getting run by PUGs right or wrong? I don't know, you tell me.

What do you guys think? Answer the poll and post your opinion!

Edit: Removed poll, it was adding very little value due to most active forumers having not entered Limbo anyway - please just post your thoughts instead.

[woqued]

Meh. I think it's fine if we don't get XRs too fast as of yet. It's still a testing phase for the run, and it's getting molded as we progress as a community of players.

It is a very hard run, and to progress it takes a pretty harsh learning curve. PUG groups will get more popular in time, when there is more knowledge out there. People have taken small strolls there, and are now preparing various toons that might do better there.

Also, if I understood correctly, some sets are slated to being added to the run - so your "not rewarding enough" issue is already taken into consideration - not sure what the final verdict will be. I do think there should be a bit more set items to be found there, but it's hard to make paragon sets that won't completely trash all previous BURs (if there are too many sets) yet ones that won't get completely useless when XRs start to be a little bit more common.

Anyway, I think we need to wait and see. There is no rush with progressing through the run and no need to get everyone to run a single run (limbo) all the time. Patience is key here I think.

[Raj]

A bit too early to say.

Limbo difficulty level is too big of an obstacle for most open shout parties, but it keeps the old population entertained and is a good hook to lure back those who left after having accomplished everything else.

By contrast, look at how little Abyss action there's going on, it has been out since 2010, has great loot and rewards and doesn't require complete reincarnation of most hell-worthy builds, unlike Limbo. Still, it has always been ran very little, but it has to do with different players motivations and you won't fix that with a loot overhaul.

P.S. I ran Limbo for 2 weeks and all I got was this lousy gem.


ETA for a random XR subbie: 1 month and a half. Yes, people might have other priorities before that.

[Werehound Silverfang]

Personally I've been waiting until I can pick the brains of folks who've been there so I'm not completely helpless my first real run; I only ran a single beta run prior to release.

And from what I see so far I hardly have the time to take for the run. A 3 hour Abo run on the weekend nearly killed my schedule.

[desocupado]

Your numbers convinced me to not bother longer with limbo. I did p1 2 times (the first time was with DTs, we failed early - map 2 - the second one we got to the end)

If it was 1 xr per 10-20 canopics it would somewhat attractive (roughly 0,5 - 1 true drop per run) - maybe the issue is the trade ratio, dunno.
By the way how much choice do you have on the item you get when you exchange?

Personally I dislike committing more than 60 minutes to any run. It was refreshing seeing different mobs - but I felt it was a bit too varied to grasp.
Maybe half as long runs (with adjusted rest consumption like 2-4) would make it easier to fit in people's schedule.

[Twilight Semner]

Mar 31, 2016 1:03:19 GMT desocupado said:

Your numbers convinced me to not bother longer with limbo. I did p1 2 times (the first time was with DTs, we failed early - map 2 - the second one we got to the end)

If it was 1 xr per 10-20 canopics it would somewhat attractive (roughly 0,5 - 1 true drop per run) - maybe the issue is the trade ratio, dunno.
By the way how much choice do you have on the item you get when you exchange?

Personally I dislike committing more than 60 minutes to any run. It was refreshing seeing different mobs - but I felt it was a bit too varied to grasp.
Maybe half as long runs (with adjusted rest consumption like 2-4) would make it easier to fit in people's schedule.

So what I'm hearing is: too long, too difficult.

Welcome to paragon areas. It's supposed to be hard. And XRs are the final loot tier, so they're meant to be scarce. Give it time, learn the run. It'll get faster and easier, but it's never going to be easy. It's not SUPPOSED to be easy. You're not SUPPOSED to get an XR every time you do a run.

[desocupado]

Nah what you are hearing is that not getting a single XR for 2 hours of my life after having enough power (hell/abyss cycles, paragon levels plus good gear let's say ~80 hours) to participate on the run doesn't appeal to me. Even more so considering the run can fail (we almost wiped at the boss)

I also asked how much choice do we have when we exchange canopics.

//edit Keep in mind I'm just 1 vote - I'm not saying people will/should agree with me - for instance loot usually don't appeal to me

[Twilight Semner]

You can exchange 50 Canopics for a random XR of a random type, and 250 for a random XR of a specific type.

You're also forgetting that this isn't a level 80, or even a level 75 area, or even a level 70 area. It's a level 65 area. XRs can't even be used til level 70. One could make the argument that you shouldn't even be getting canopics at all. Their scarcity is reflective of the difficulty of the run relative to how difficult Elder Evils is going to be, which will undoubtedly provide XRs at a much higher rate.

[Deleted]

Mar 31, 2016 1:03:19 GMT desocupado said:

By the way how much choice do you have on the item you get when you exchange?

It is a little vague because Ixion doesn't speak good English, but I believe the two relevant conversions are:
50 canopics = 1 random XR
250 canopics = 1 random XR out of a specific category (eg: 1 random XR-book, or 1 random XR-shield)

Mar 31, 2016 1:07:39 GMT Twilight Semner said:

Welcome to paragon areas. It's supposed to be hard. And XRs are the final loot tier, so they're meant to be scarce. Give it time, learn the run. It'll get faster and easier, but it's never going to be easy. It's not SUPPOSED to be easy. You're not SUPPOSED to get an XR every time you do a run.

I agree that the areas should be long/hard and the items should not be trivial or fast to acquire. But, there is obviously the question of 'exactly how scarce is appropriate?'.
For example, if it was 500 canopics per XR we could equally say, "they're SUPPOSED to be hard to acquire", but this level of scarcity would clearly be impractically high.

In terms of getting 'faster and easier', realistically speaking a non-guild player (without any 'gimmicks' such as low-mans/multi-boxing) is never going to get much higher than 5 canopics/hour of play, regardless of choice of run/difficulty/demi-shackling etc... so ~10 hours per XR. To me, this feels too long.
Consider that it is literally almost the same amount of time required to earn an Abyssal Vestige.

My intention is not at all to drive people away from Limbo - a colossal amount of time and effort has been sunk into developing Paragon gear/areas by the staff, and the areas are truly amazing to play in. But it does seem like slightly wasted effort if only a handful of players are experiencing the content and getting to use the items.

Anyway, Woku/Raj are correct and in hindsight I was a bit premature in making this thread. Still, I think any amount of discussion will be productive (particularly feedback from players who haven't been playing a lot of Limbo).

[Werehound Silverfang]

Mar 31, 2016 1:31:52 GMT Twilight Semner said:

You can exchange 50 Canopics for a random XR of a random type, and 250 for a random XR of a specific type.

You're also forgetting that this isn't a level 80, or even a level 75 area, or even a level 70 area. It's a level 65 area. XRs can't even be used til level 70. One could make the argument that you shouldn't even be getting canopics at all. Their scarcity is reflective of the difficulty of the run relative to how difficult Elder Evils is going to be, which will undoubtedly provide XRs at a much higher rate.

Sobering thought.

[cathedralmaster]

I think it's just the low server population. With so few people on now, it's a lot harder to bring together the elements that made impromptu endgame runs possible.

[FunkySwerve]

Mar 31, 2016 2:24:19 GMT cathedralmaster said:

I think it's just the low server population. With so few people on now, it's a lot harder to bring together the elements that made impromptu endgame runs possible.

This is my take as well, and is something we are actively working to change. We will also be introducing new lower-level content and loot, so all the fun isn't strictly endgame.

Funky

[Sapphire [SL]]

Though am not going to vote on this because it is unlikely that I will be able to go on a limbo run for a long time to come. Can I suggest something that may ease the difficulties that some have reported with these area's .. That being possibly to allow just for limbo runs alone an increase in party numbers say to 12 or perhaps 15 .. I realise population is not what it used to be but this would possibly increase the viability of runs in making them a bit less likely to get wiped out (ie. fail) ..

[Li'l Rose]

Mar 31, 2016 5:32:39 GMT FunkySwerve said:

Mar 31, 2016 2:24:19 GMT cathedralmaster said:

Thank you Funky. Will be nice to see more new stuff for lower levels too. I am one who likes to try new things, even if they are really hard. It does not matter to me if I die and lose stuff. It is still fun to try. However I have not seen any called Limbo runs while I have been on, so have not tried it yet.

[bazukar]

Mar 30, 2016 23:49:12 GMT Raj said:

By contrast, look at how little Abyss action there's going on, it has been out since 2010, has great loot and rewards and doesn't require complete reincarnation of most hell-worthy builds, unlike Limbo.

I personally think this is the meat of the issue right here. I think people tend to shy away from the more difficult runs that require more optimized builds (or even specialized in some cases) and from what I have seen and heard the XR areas are very unforgiving of sloppy builds. Not to derail or start anything but there are a lot of sloppy or poorly optimized builds on the forums. We've talked about it before. Run time investment can factor into it, but it's something that can be worked around with either familiarity or dev intervention.