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Post by FunkySwerve on Aug 25, 2005 1:45:06 GMT
I could get down with that I guess. You guys need to start posting whether you are suggesting as a secret subrace or not. The lizardfolk is way overpowered for a human subrace unless secret, I would prolly balance the stats and stick em in as half-elves, so no bonus feats etc. Funky
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Post by Ralkain on Aug 25, 2005 11:51:30 GMT
The lizardfolk is way overpowered for a human subrace unless secret I was posting it as a non-secret race, but forgot the -2 Cha. I have updated the Lizardfolk post to include that. Additionally, you can leave off the IUC/natural attack line if you think that would make it a secret race. That seems just a gee wiz thing to me that folks will never use, leaving it off is fine, if they really want it they'll take monk or use their human bonus feat for it. Dave.
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Post by Ralkain on Aug 30, 2005 12:18:24 GMT
Hi,
In addition to the Lizardfolk idea, another Humanoid that could easily be represented in HG would be Troll (Sub-Race of Half-Orc):
+2 Str, +3 Con, -2 Dex, -2 Int, -2 Cha Regeneration +5
With a net -1 stat mod, I don't think they need to be special, but up to you.
Dave.
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Post by Argon on Aug 30, 2005 14:47:58 GMT
Troll sounds cool. If you're worried about it being overpowered, another way to balance it would be add fire/acid vulnerabilities. Very troll-like.
(Random thought: probably impossible to implement, but I've always thought (at least traditionally) trolls could only be killed by fire or acid. Too bad there's not an easy way to make it that fire/acid damage can't be regenerated, but that normal physical damage can regenerate at like +15 or something, and not counting physical damage towards death. I guess that's the difference between NWN trolls and fantasy trolls.)
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Post by Ralkain on Aug 30, 2005 15:59:39 GMT
Troll sounds cool. If you're worried about it being overpowered, I'm not worried about it being overpowered, with a net -1 stat total (-3 when you add in half orc) it seems very reasonable. Make good fighter types and Shamen (no negative on Wis, even if they do end up with -4 Int/Cha with Half-Orc mods included). As you note later in your post, trolls aren't vulnerable to acid/fire (i.e., they don't take any more damage than anyone else from it). However, they can't regen it and that's not easy to represent in nwn so rather than picking regen +10 or 15, but not versus acid/fire, I picked a more modest +5 to try to balance things some since damage type isn't associated with regen to my knowledge in NWN (i.e., hard or impossible to say no regen versus fire damage). Though if funky thinks 5 nerfs them too much and wants to make it +10, I'm ok with that too (always feel free to add if you feel I've restricted them too much . I might have an alternate solution though, how about making it DR: 5/[everything but acid/fire] and dropping their regen down to +2? This would could simulate instantly healing 5 points from any attack and a slower regen rate on any attack that exceeded this instant body recovery rate (or was acid/fire). Personally I think a flat regen number is simplest, but its up to funky. Dave.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Aug 30, 2005 21:32:07 GMT
Troll sounds cool. If you're worried about it being overpowered, I'm not worried about it being overpowered, I think he meant me. Now you're talking. +5 regen is nuts for a regular subrace, no offense. That would have a noticable impact at upper levels, and we have lower levels to think about as well. DR, on the other hand, is a bit more of a wash, especially at the upper levels. I'll probably reduce another stat point somewhere to account for the resists and regen,but it'll make it in in some form. Thanks, Funky
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Post by FunkySwerve on Aug 30, 2005 21:34:11 GMT
Oh and I'm still waiting to see some minotaurs, Illithids, and Badlander halflings, guys, along with whatever craziness you can cook up. Its more time efficient to do these in batches, since I have to sit down with at least one team member and hash through them to ensure they are relatively balanced.
I should also add that trolls only killable with fire or acid has been scripted (not really that hard), though it doesn't see very approriate for a PC race. If someone can come up with a suggestion incorparating it that seems balanced I'll put it in for playtest. Just another wrinkle for our ever-expanding onplayerdeath event.
Funky
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Post by Terragen on Aug 30, 2005 22:11:03 GMT
Well, here's my suggestion for the Badlander Halfling. Its sure hard to think of ways for Halflings to compete in such a harsh competitive realm...
Badlander: +2 Dex, -2 Str, +1 Cha, -1 Con (or maybe Int)... alternatively +3 Dex, -3 Str, +2 Cha, -2 Int, +1 Wis, -1 Con Small Stature (of course) Skill Focus: +3 Hide, Set Traps, Pick Pockets Keen Sense (same as Elf and Derrzagon) Improved Speed 25% or so, just a bit faster. Combat Training vs Elves
Thats pretty much it, I got other ideas for spell-like abilities and such, but I'm tryin to keep them somewhat fair... lemme know what ye thinketh oh pantheon of the wise!
[glow=White,7,300][shadow=Green,right,1400][/shadow][/glow]
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Post by FunkySwerve on Aug 30, 2005 22:27:12 GMT
The first set of stats looks pretty good. Not sure about the speed increase, esp with monks and barbs (barb halfling? lol theres a thought), but this one MIGHT make it through as is. Nice job! Funky
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Post by Ralkain on Aug 30, 2005 23:44:14 GMT
I'm not worried about it being overpowered, I think he meant me. I meant you too Why? Its stats are already at a net -1, its certainly on parr with Deep Orcs who's stats are even and less than Bugbear/Gnoll who get the Human stuff. Its up to you though, no matter what you decide DR or regen though they should still at least have Regen+1 if they have DR or Regen+3 without IMO. Heck make them secret if you have to. Dave.
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Post by Ralkain on Aug 31, 2005 14:25:05 GMT
I should also add that trolls only killable with fire or acid has been scripted (not really that hard), No one said that would be hard, we said regen that only worked versus non-acid/fire damage would be hard. Can you give us some guidelines on what you think appropriate for PC races? I'm having a difficult time finding what guage you are using (one where Wraiths, Shades, Half-Dragons, Planar Touched, Illithids etc. are appropriate PC races and Trolls not). I still can't see the imbalance you see. What was submitted had net stat loss (not staying even or bonus as most the other races) and a single special ability (Regen +5) and was subraced under Half-Orcs (not humans) for another -2 stat loss (total -3). I also found it strange that you found Regen +5 unbalanced, but DR: 5/[everthing but acid/fire] balanced/much better. IMO, that's way more imbalanced, given the choice between the two, everyone would choose DR (at low and high levels). The simple fact is that Regen is a wimpy ability in NWN, its only real benefit is seen on those rare times you are knocked into negatives, but not dead and no longer being attacked. Regen +5 would only ever stop 5 damage/round, DR: 5/[all but acif/fire] stops 5-25/round at low levels and 50+ at high levels, as well as providing some level of magic and divine protection. Its clear to me that the Regen version is balanced and the DR out of balance. You feeling the opposite has me baffled and the only real reason I'm still talking about this (I'd like to figure out this difference, couldn't care less about the Trolls in question). That being said, include them as submitted, modified, or not at all its your server. I'm not married to the race and don't intend to build one. I'm more concerned that you as an experience DM and I as an experienced programmer and game designer seem, not just far apart on balance issues, but on opposite sides in some cases (like this one, regen is clearly weaker than DR yet you think its stronger). Its this gulf that I'd like to solve for future conversasions . That being said, keep up the good work. Its easy for players to point out specific instances where we think you made a mistake. Even when we're right and you're wrong, it rarely makes a difference in how a work is judged. Works are judged on the whole and not on a single part or instance. And on the whole the HG PoA server is excellent, well balanced, and run by excellent people/DMs. Keep it up guys. Dave.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Aug 31, 2005 17:02:12 GMT
I should also add that trolls only killable with fire or acid has been scripted (not really that hard), No one said that would be hard, we said regen that only worked versus non-acid/fire damage would be hard. Actually, Argon said it, though he characterized it as 'probably impossible'. I was just posting this to let him know it's not. Anything around human-sized or smaller, that has an appearance in the toolset (or something that looks like it). If you check the post above you'll see that it was the 'only being killed by fire or acid' bit I thought was inappropriate for a PC race. The reason why seems obvious: most mosters don't have fire or acid damage, and the PC would be as good as immortal from the getgo. First off, I was again talking about being only killable by fire or acid. Like I said, I will be putting trolls in in some way, now, but the fire/acid-death ones would need playtest. As to the imbalance, its BECAUSE it was under Half-Orcs, in part, that the problem arises. Half-Ors ALREADY have a stat boost to str, so giving them another needs to be offset in some way. If you take another look at the subraces, a gain of +1 in an already favored stat is offset by a -2 elsewhere, or the lack of other extraordinary abilities, or a -1 in an already penalized stat. But wait, you say, those ARE already penalized stats I harshed trolls with! The problem is, except for INT(skills) and to a lesser degree WIS(will save), cutting those stats doesn't affect melee builds much, and guess what people will be making with trolls? This is why, I suspect, Bioware felt it necessaary to do the Half-Orc extra harsh to begin with. It is definitely the reason that stats cost more the more you 'buy' in a stat. Who wouldn't pump almost every point into STR, or Wis, or what-have-you-depending-on-the-build if stat points always cost just 1 character point? Or, if you prefer, you can think of it in economic terms, as a sort of evolutionary marginal cost. On top of that, with trolls, there is also the regen to compensate for (I'll get to WHY its more potent than DR below) First off, you are wrong about regen. It's value doesn't lie in the rare instances it pulls your ass up off the ground, though those are nice, but in the time it saves you. Huh? Yes, the time you don't spend drinking heal potions. That time is used swinging at monsters (or other PCs). Think it's negligable? Do some experimenting, it isn't. Consider the number of rounds a monster has to swing at you before you need to heal. Lets suppose Mr. High-Level Critter is handing out 50 points of damage per round to you, on average (after resistances/ immunities). Further suppose that you have 605 hps, and regen at 5 per round (I'm trying to keep the numbers average here, alotta monsters deal out more or less, and a lotta builds wind up with more or less hps and regen). With no regen, you have to heal every 12 rounds. With regen, every 13. The extra round is spent damaging your enemy or on other more exigent tasks (like rezzing comrades). Thats a damage increase of around 8% for just 5 regen. Adding to regen adds to damage output per second, albeit indirectly. Now, take that high level example and drop it into a low level context: Mr Tiny Harmless Critter (that's THC for you Badlanders reading this) dukes out an average of 5 dmg per round (again after resistances). You have 51 hp an 5 regen. Instead of healing every 10 rounds, you will NEVER need to heal. Ok, so regen isn't a total waste (far from it). But, you say, not fair! Those damage totals were figured AFTER resistances! My answer? Of course they were. If you are not using more than 5/- resistance across the board at high levels in HG, odds are you are not doing too well. Monster damages were calculated (and recalculated, during the rebalancing in Dec/Jan) with the assumption that characters would be packing at least 10/- phsyical and 15/- elemental, and 5/- exotic by Abyss time. And damage resistance DOESNT STACK, UNLIKE regeneration. So what good does your 5/- across the board subrace resistance net you by that time? Nothing zip zilch zero. It's all covered by equipment you're already wearing (or are hosed if you aren't). Not 50 points + per round, or even anything remotely like it (more on that figure later). What about at low levels, then? 5-25? Rediculous. 5, 10 tops. Why? Monsters don't deal damage in every category, 95% or more deal only one, maybe 2 types, at low levels. By the time their damage diversifies you oughta be wearing higher resists than 5/-. And even by level 10 the effect of 5/- resistance is negated by slapping on a greater swordsmans belt to head to the tower (though inside you'd still net 5/- sonic resist). If you want to melee in there with only 5/- slash, be my guest, but its not very safe. Now compare this to regen. Regen stops the damage (or heals it, the difference is nearly semantic in a high-powered world like HG) no matter what. DR stops it only if you aren't wearing equivalent or better DR, which you almost always are. That said, give me a choice between 5 DR across the board and 5 regen and I'll pick the regen every time. BUT, that was certainly NOT what I thought you meant whenh you said 5/- across the board. I would never give a subrace 5/- exotic resists. It doesn't seem balanced, especially around the level 20-35 range, and doesn't seem to follow from the logic of NWN. Exotic damages are supposed to be superrare and superpowerful, and that's how we built them up in the rebalanced version of HG. If fire and acid can stop regen, it certainly seems that divine or magical damage should. Of course, these were not really contemplated in the game that created trolls, AD&D (or Tunnels and Trolls if you prefer, or D&D boxed sets, whatever), since the exotic damages are a creation of Bioware's recent NWN expansion, and didn't exist in the original. In any case it never occurred to me to include exotic DR in the calculus. In case anyone is confused by my classifications: Physical: Slash/Bludgeon/Pierce Elemental: Fire/Cold/Acid/Electrical/(Sonic - quasi-exotic) Exotic: Magical/Positive/Negative/Divine Archmage and I spent a good long time talking about how to classify sonic, but thats another discussion. It wound up being somewhere in the in-between of power, GTC is nice, but it's no Horrid's. Thanks man. I hope this post helps alleviate some of the confusion. In another PW, especially a low-magic one with little DR gear, you would definitely be correct about the relative vlue of regen and DR, but in HG its a bit of a different story. Best, Funky
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Post by Ralkain on Aug 31, 2005 18:36:18 GMT
BUT, that was certainly NOT what I thought you meant whenh you said 5/- across the board. Therein lies the cause of the confusion. Now stop thinking folks say something other than what they say and we won't have this again, lol (everything but acid/fire means everything but acid/fire . (this is tongue and cheek, not a real scolding) I still disagree with much of your regen analysis, but I mainly wanted to know how we could be so off base on comparing 2 things. Now I know the answer is we were comparing 2 different things . I agree NWN nerfed Half-Orcs because they thought the Str bonus could be abused, which is why I also nerfed Trolls (including nefing Dex *and* Int). I didn't feel I could nerf wis too due to troll shamans in NWN. I hope, now in hindsight, you agree that Str didn't turn out to be the uber stat they feared Dex seems to have turned out much better in the long run. I feel the troll as submitted with maybe +3 regen then is equal to the Half-Ogre. The troll has a special ability the Half-Ogre lacks, but the half ogre got equal stat nerfing for their unequal Str gain. Would trolls work as a secret race if the regen was dropped to +3? Heck, I've used enough mages/monks with the banner that grants +5 regen and a lot of other stuff to know you don't even notice that level of regen . I think its in your hands now Funky, do with it what you will. For the record, I thought of Minotaur and such, but I won't submit a race unless I can think of something to make it unique. There's a lot of big dumb brute races to make them unique can be a challenge. Take minotaurs for instance, str/con bonus sure, int/cha penalties sure, but a lot of dumb brutes have that. How do you make them unique, probably Power Attack, Will save bonuses, and 1/- DR in my mind. I'd rather submit things like that to you and you finalize the details and make them fit your scheme (i.e., you pick the str/con bonus, int/cha penalty, base race, and level of will save/dr). Dave.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Aug 31, 2005 21:40:19 GMT
Like I said, even WITH exotics included in 5/- across the board, I'd still pick +5 regen across the board, so that is not really the heart of our disagreement. I hope, now in hindsight, you agree that Str didn't turn out to be the uber stat they feared Dex seems to have turned out much better in the long run. No, I definitely don't agree. Surprise surprise lol. I've struggled to keep STR builds and DEX builds relatively balanced. My dexers face different challenges than my STR builds, and with the addition of the new equipment on the eternals, I think things are edging back to an even keel (for a long time on HG, dexers and mages SUCKED, and in trying to fix that we went a bit too far with dexers (and with mages, but that was corrected a while ago). The problem with your analysis is that you assume that 'uber' stats are a universal rather than a relative problem, when in fact they are almost entirely dependant on how a builder deals with them. This is also the problem with your analysis of regen vs. DR - in an empty mod, with no gear, your argument makes sense, but when placed in the context of the HG gearset and monsters it falls flat. And of course, I have to design the subraces in the context of the mod they are being put in rather than in some gear-free abstract state. As to the trolls, if put in as a secret subrace, I'd probably go with +5 regen. Funky
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Post by Terragen on Sept 23, 2005 15:22:13 GMT
Any chance some new subraces are making the next update? I'm really itching to make my new character... here's the one I'm speaking about, modified: Badlander: (Halfling - Badlander) +2 Dex, -2 Str, +1 Cha, -1 Con - Small Stature (same as regular halfling) - Skill Focus: +3 Hide, Set Traps, Pick Pockets - Keen Sense (same as Elf and Derrzagon) - Combat Training vs Elves (akin to Dwarf/Gnome training vs goblins or kobolds or whatever they are, except against elves of course). Favored Class: Rogue Better? I don't think this is more powered than a Derrzagon or Grimlock, and these are non-secret races. So how about it? Will my dream be realized?
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