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Post by tomaan on Jun 29, 2020 16:14:22 GMT
Are these builds obsolete or have people simply gotten bored with them?
Smiter - Pally/BG - smite AB is a bit lowish (even for a touch attack) but should be able to hit ~80d20 damage on a lvl 80 pure build
Turner - ran with one the other day but haven't seen any others
Staffmaster and Staff Monk - think there was a damage nerf a while back?
XDD - sucky damage but easy to build and gear
Double Weapon Tank - I think it was just Barb that used them (i.e. dual wield + shield)?
CS Ranger - can be tough to gear for different mob tops (need a LOT of weapons)
Any others?
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Post by TJ on Jun 29, 2020 16:31:24 GMT
Turner works pretty well, but the ego is a requirement unfortunately.
CS Ranger is also pretty good.
The rest are trash.
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Post by woqued on Jun 29, 2020 17:49:03 GMT
Many of these have issues discussed in depth in other threads as of late, but basically what TJ said. Gonna blabber on them anyway out of boredom:
Double weapon barbarian (or tank) is the one that is easy to build and gear over XDDs imho. They work, they're just inferior to basic 2h - invest feats (both exotic and dual feats) to deal less dmg, good plan. I have two guys using dual weapos and they're alright not great but alright, but especially when they're up against something like Orcus with high resists they're pretty much deadweight - it's 100% a flavour/nostalgy choice but can be pulled off - XRs/Limbop1/LimboP2 weps make it easier to penetrate old DRs to remain useful
XDD: walking stat stick with fear aura - with low damage and meh survivability (no conceal, no crit imm, no dex, "mandatory 10 epic toughness", large size inferiority, limited splashing, no redeeming qualities - they get a lot of stats but no mechanics that utilize said stats) - BFM/DSM tanks perform somewhat better since they have some spells and Tensers but meh meh, still lacking in every way. Dashy tried very hard to make it work, always wanted it to be something else, sad cute dragon.
Smiter: more or less requires being pure and going 10 feats in it (limits flexibility), splashing is better than what smite brings to the table no matter how you cook it + you can't smite a huge chunk of Limbo enemies unless you're BG... And even then it's basically a decent damage AoE spell as a touch attack with 100 ab every minute as pure - super outdated mechanic after all the powercreep out there at this point. Still performs alright in Abyss and Hells on a lvl 80 build, but you know what they say about BUR/XR lvl 80 paragon guys in Hells/Abyss...
Turner: I never found these too interesting, I think they're by nature too annoying to balance - it's too binary between op and useless and ego reliance is just a terrible frustration - but definitely can perform well when it fits their niche.
Staffmaster/Staffmonk: dmg too nerfed compared to alternatives, not much valuable utility - still sturdy
CS Ranger: these are stronk, no biggie. Use bow to CS things, swap to sickle/spear when you need to prioritize damage: just because you CS with a bow doesn't mean you shouldn't be up close and personal to provide invis purge and utilize that fat AC you get from being a ranger.
... That being said, if you have some paragon levels and/or strong gear at your disposal, all of these classes perform well enough in pre-Limbo areas - they just won't be as good as many other things.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2020 18:00:19 GMT
Turner and CS Ranger I have played and love. I presently have a maxed out 80 turner than smashes Abyss and Hell, is more utility than anything in Limbo. Like mentioned, it’s OP or it’s trash. Getting the XR CHA point for one more DC has made a HUGE impact on how fun it is.
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Post by magecat on Jun 29, 2020 18:45:13 GMT
Rogues:highergroundpoa.proboards.com/post/238013/threadIf some other changes were to be made to Rogues, I would buff up Self Concealment by reducing amount of feats needed to pick it up and/or increase the amount of conceal it provides. 5 feats for undispellable 69% conceal (according to wiki, didn't do math myself) is WEAK when you need Hide to get it as well, and that Hide gets you 61-66% in the party environment of HG for no feat investment whatsoever - and Rogues are featstarved. Suggestion: Buff Self-Concealment up to ~~75% concealment at rogue 40, and/or reduce amount of feats required. 127 hide should be sufficient requirement, when other classes just cast or toggle similar amounts of concealment on themselves even with splash options, it's a paragon rogue for crying out loud. Surely they are stealthier than many others! Example: Self-C 1 grants Rogue level /2 not counting paragon levels concealment +Hide/4 cap at 31 rounded down total 61% for pure rog at 60. Legendary Self-C increases the number by 5%, Paragon Concealment increases that concealment further by 5% for a total of 3 feats for 71% instead of 5 for 69%, but consumes Legendary/Paragon feats over epic/rogue feats. More concealment for less investment, but forces your hand at LL/PL to get it. Random note: could give that same Self-Concealment feat access to Assassins btw! For them it could count both assassin/rogue levels for this concealment. 3 feats for Hide-reliant 71% should not be too much to ask.
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Post by tomaan on Jun 29, 2020 20:25:22 GMT
Many of these have issues discussed in depth in other threads as of late, but basically what TJ said. Gonna blabber on them anyway out of boredom .... Understood - not trying to start another one of those threads! Really just looking at some builds that were once pretty effective (as opposed to builds that have always needed some love). IE: Staffmaster was OP at one point iirc....same with double-weapon barb. Just can't remember if they were nerfed or fell behind the power creep? ...and now that I think of it, xDD was just a go-to for noobs until they got better gear and subbies.
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Post by chainlink on Jun 29, 2020 20:29:05 GMT
Turner and CS Ranger I have played and love. I presently have a maxed out 80 turner than smashes Abyss and Hell, is more utility than anything in Limbo. Like mentioned, it’s OP or it’s trash. Getting the XR CHA point for one more DC has made a HUGE impact on how fun it is. Umm two more Cha points only gives you another turn per rest it has no effect on your turn DC, we have been through the whole how turns work in great detail before. I have turners in normal and hardcore including -HC- demigods (even a Prince win one) and boy do they help a struggling party and seriously boost a good party, I have more level 80 turners than anything else.
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Post by chainlink on Jun 29, 2020 20:40:25 GMT
Staffmasters and staff monks got the same kick in the nether regions, quarterstaves get zero boost for 2h use, which is why nobody in their right mind uses a quarterstaff (other than for propping open doors) these days.
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Post by simpetar on Jun 29, 2020 20:57:28 GMT
Staffmasters and staff monks got the same kick in the nether regions, quarterstaves get zero boost for 2h use, which is why nobody in their right mind uses a quarterstaff (other than for propping open doors) these days. Attachments:
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Post by simpetar on Jun 29, 2020 21:14:07 GMT
P.S. I posted that screenie, just because I find such categorical statements funny. Staffies (and to an extent staff monks) are lagging behind and could use help, at least partial, but that change is already on the to-do list along with other class edits, 5+ days from now. Until then, discussions as this one (as much as they keep the forums alive) will probably fall on deaf ears.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2020 22:14:18 GMT
Turner destruction DC goes up with CHA modifier, that is what I meant to say. And that one DC is a HUGE shift. You feel it, and it’s amazing.
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Post by tomaan on Jun 29, 2020 23:33:49 GMT
P.S. I posted that screenie, just because I find such categorical statements funny. Staffies (and to an extent staff monks) are lagging behind and could use help, at least partial, but that change is already on the to-do list along with other class edits, 5+ days from now. Until then, discussions as this one (as much as they keep the forums alive) will probably fall on deaf ears. 5 days? It used to only be 3. The times they are a changin'! But seriously, not trying to change anything, just trying to figure out which builds to scrap and which ones to reconfigure.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2020 4:07:00 GMT
Turner and CS ranger are both worth it for sure.
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Post by thomascovenant on Jun 30, 2020 6:30:49 GMT
I remember we was years without seeing turners, they was used ( before when the cap lvl was 60 ) but started to be effective just around lvl 55, then we saw none or about on many years. i builded mine and in the lvl 70 she started to do pretty well on LL runs with her ego ring who gave her 1/3 more turning mobs she had awsome amount of kills at each runs. I played her for few years now, but since few months i see more and more Turners in party, i think my turner kills bring interest some to build them own one, or to put off the dust the one they had and reinc it to put it back on the fight.
What is awsome it's when your turner cannot turn some mobs at lest a good part you cannot destroy go stunned for a long time, this make things a lot easyer for melees toons, also to have casters mobs stunned this help a bunch the whole party, sometime this is a real carnage. Sure on some runs you can feel near useless to the party.
On building turner you need to choose well wich domains to take if you want your turner to be effective. But also you need to accept to feel like a luggage time to time on some run and about just be able to provide buffing and epics for your party members.
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Post by woqued on Jun 30, 2020 6:43:55 GMT
P.S. I posted that screenie, just because I find such categorical statements funny. Staffies (and to an extent staff monks) are lagging behind and could use help, at least partial, but that change is already on the to-do list along with other class edits, 5+ days from now. Until then, discussions as this one (as much as they keep the forums alive) will probably fall on deaf ears. 5 days? It used to only be 3. The times they are a changin'! But seriously, not trying to change anything, just trying to figure out which builds to scrap and which ones to reconfigure. I wouldn't scrap or reconfigure anything, just put a disclaimer that it's outdated and not necessarily the creme de la creme, unless you have those builds in your character vault and want to make better use of said characters. Since you're asking on forums, you might put that in any build you've made in any case if you have builds up that you're not sure how hard they've been hit by changes since then (I don't know if you do or have, but I think that'd be only fair for some of the builds on the forum). Barb dualweapon user: still works fine, it's a sturdy "1hander" with 6-8 attacks with clumsy swapping. Other dualweapon user: better reinc to 2h - if you have a lot of unused dualweapons and not so many others, a Fighter or CoT (a lot of extra feats, so doesn't mind the dualweapon etc feat strain) can also pull off dual weapons just fine. Staffmonk: reinc to 2h monk. Staffmaster: reinc to PM, or keep as is if you get an XR qstaff, or if you are lacking in a sturdy frontliner then a pure staffy or monksplash staffy is a good frontliner. Smiter: reinc to 28/5/7, 29/4/7 or 31/4/5 with ftr/wm/harper <- pick your preference and hit stuff with a 2h weapon - if it's a 0-1x demi without princes can also hit things with a 1h if you would rather pick defenses over glasscannon (2h paladin is fairly glassy until demi iterations and asmo arti). Turner: if you like turner, play turner. Very many reincarnation options to go for as Cleric - BattleCleric with a weapon in 35/4/1, "Bot" support/picker/tank cleric 39/1, 38/1/1, 40; and various casters with either pure or 39/1, and even Theurge at 26/13/1 or 26/14, or even slinger at 40 but that's a very much deliberate self-nerf for flavour choice as well.
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