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Post by FunkySwerve on Dec 17, 2020 17:39:27 GMT
Any chance of adding ranger AC to double weapons Funky? Sorry, I misread this the first go-round. Comes of zipping through posts. I don't honestly remember whey we don't allow it, other than lore/pnp. Adding to the discussion list for the team. Funky
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2020 17:47:26 GMT
Dual wield will be king, everyone pivot there. Harper Scout is still full abandon ship. Everyone stockpile medium weps! On what are we basing this brazen assessment, praytell? Without any of the relevant information about, say, dex requirement / stacking? Clearly something other than sound judgment based on facts, which makes me suspect this is more motivated reasoning than anything else. Moliated boots were only worth it before because you HAD to wear them for the buff. Now that the buff isn’t tied to the slot and any boots can be worn there is zero reason to ever wear either iteration of the Wanderer Boots. The investment you’re making by splashing 5 Harper on a ranger for what you get, effectively 6 minutes of attacks is not even remotely worth it in my opinion. So 10 minutes limited to two uses, and being stuck with a particular set of boots, is top-build material, but 6 minutes divisible three ways with any boots you want is 'not even remotely worth it' / 'full abandon ship'. Check. Or are we cherry-picking one example, and ignoring the more obvious uses? In an earlier thread you said losing 2.5 was a fair trade off for the boots slot, so I assume the 90 second difference remaining is the difference between top build and uselessness/'abandon ship' in your estimation. At this point you're so all over the place I don't see why I should lend any weight to your opinion. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that this is because you really don't understand the things we factor into balancing decisions, though it certainly appears to be more about you campaigning to undo a nerf you don't like without any regard for server balance, and throwing every rationale you think might have a chance at it, up to and including the kitchen sink. I'll link you the balancing post I promised this weekend and still haven't gotten to. Funky 2.5 minutes versus 2 minutes has a lot of value to me because of the duration of things such as a boss fight, or a significant spawn, like an elite black with some deaths, etc. it may sound trivial or just “90” seconds. But, from my perspective it’s the difference between something being available for the duration of the time you’d want it versus running out during. I know the goal is it not to be available for an entire map or anything like that, and I don’t want that either. But, tactical application to me is I can fire it and it last for that oh crap moment. Alot of the critical pieces are either done or determined in that 2-2.5 minute range, the extra oomph making the impact to me. It wouldn’t be a top build with the extra time, but to me it would make it worthwhile. For the fighter build specifically, you’re talking 6 minutes of buffs versus a ton of AC. That AC means I am healing a lot less / almost never and my damage up time far outweighs what I am getting from 6 minutes of buffs. I don’t know that there is anything overwhelmingly out ahead anymore. More play testing needed for sure, but there seems to be a lot more parity. Reference my AA thread and my remarking that they’re competitive in my POV again to support that. Getting Harper to a place where it’s I can go defensive with a monk or offensive with a Harper is awesome. But, currently monk beats it out across the board. As I have said, the changes that the patches have brought I have loved. Across the board except Harper duration and brazier. The brazier issue is dead. Harper is being worked out. I fully support the goal of balancing things across platforms, I fully support parity and lots being good and useable and different toons. You’ve done a fantastic job and I can definitely be doing a bit more play testing before commenting for sure.
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Post by tomaan on Dec 17, 2020 18:13:56 GMT
Any chance of adding ranger AC to double weapons Funky? Sorry, I misread this the first go-round. Comes of zipping through posts. I don't honestly remember whey we don't allow it, other than lore/pnp. Adding to the discussion list for the team. Funky would it be too OP to make them a monk weapon (ie attack progression)? It's kinda-sorta a little consistent with the concept of the traditional Shaolin Monk spade form: www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1Aag-GTFtI
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Post by FunkySwerve on Dec 17, 2020 18:28:07 GMT
Yes. Monk weapon iteration gives us too many headaches as it is.
Funky
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Post by manuka on Dec 17, 2020 18:53:58 GMT
Tbh with that being the case i would go for 4min x3 duration and for dual weild or 1h gets a 20% longer duration. Also if these recent changes to 2h damage is to even the playing field i feel a better option would be to put back the 40% 2h damage, remove mass haste as a spell and throw in the dual weild buffs. Because the biggest problem with balancing dual and 2h is apr buffs Sure, let's just undo all the very necessasry nerfs because...? Are we pretending that I meant there was only one axis to balancing? I think my post above made clear otherwise. Funky You misunderstand..... im sayimg give the 40% dmg back and REMOVE 3 ATTACKS FROM MASS HASTE over all if you took advantage of this spell it would be a damage nerf on 2hs current situation, however it wouldn't be so keenly felt by players. What it would do is like i said alow you to have a chance to balance dual weild vs 2h Or dont give the 40% back, remove mass haste and dont buff dual weild. But this woyld leave tanks too weak in my opinion With all the changes to attack stacking and wraps ect is a step in the right direction to balance but you didnt change the BIGGEST APR buff in the game
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Post by dagoon on Dec 17, 2020 19:02:37 GMT
Sorry, I misread this the first go-round. Comes of zipping through posts. I don't honestly remember whey we don't allow it, other than lore/pnp. Adding to the discussion list for the team. Funky would it be too OP to make them a monk weapon (ie attack progression)? It's kinda-sorta a little consistent with the concept of the traditional Shaolin Monk spade form: www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1Aag-GTFtIMassively, there’s a reason the monk progression weapon’s (Kama, chucks, goad) are all 20x2 weapons... higher crit threat and/or multiplier would see them way ahead of everything damage wise.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Dec 17, 2020 20:00:43 GMT
Sure, let's just undo all the very necessasry nerfs because...? Are we pretending that I meant there was only one axis to balancing? I think my post above made clear otherwise. Funky You misunderstand..... im sayimg give the 40% dmg back and REMOVE 3 ATTACKS FROM MASS HASTE over all if you took advantage of this spell it would be a damage nerf on 2hs current situation, however it wouldn't be so keenly felt by players. What it would do is like i said alow you to have a chance to balance dual weild vs 2h Or dont give the 40% back, remove mass haste and dont buff dual weild. But this woyld leave tanks too weak in my opinion With all the changes to attack stacking and wraps ect is a step in the right direction to balance but you didnt change the BIGGEST APR buff in the game I misunderstood? Oh, good. Sometimes I read things too quicky, apologies. For a sec there it looked like you were suggesting not just undoing a nerf to the nearly-ubiquitous, 'head and shoulders above the rest' (quoting from another thread) Harper Scout, but ALSO leaving in the bonus boot slot AND additinoal use and increasing the duration of said ability INSTEAD of nerfing it, on top of everything else. In the name of 'balance'. You can see why that sounded crazy and self-serving, and why my eyes had rolled too far back in my head at that point to make out the rest of your post, right? So, let's take a look at what you actually wrote . . . . Oh. Oh dear. Sorry for the snark, but this crusade of yours is passing from amusingly transparent to genuinely obnoxious in the lack of intelligence it assumes concerning myself and the Team. You would stand a better chance of having your ideas implemented in the future if you were straightforward about the reasons you offered for your suggestions. I get that you don't like the edit, and I understand why. That does not mean I'm going to put your particular interests above those of the server at large. This thread represented a compromise effort to help ameliorate some of the hit to those running HS with STR builds. That you decided to try for a mile with the inch given...meh. Expected and yet still surprising. Funky
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Post by Pulpo on Dec 17, 2020 20:53:05 GMT
I think its bad for the community to make baseless accusations merely because of bitter feelings over the recent changes. I think all the devs involved are upstanding people and shouldn't be dragged through the mud because of someone's bad day. I agree. After reading some following posts and re-reading the pile of feces I wrote I can see that my communication had the undesired effect of calling some character into questions and I didnt mean that. I appreciate you pointing that out and fully apologize for it. Some insight is that I am a retired Military Member with some pretty bad PTSD. I dont say this to garner any pity but to perhaps illustrate why I have posted so many apology posts because I have yet to be rid of my Military "This is my Team" mentality where outcomes and results far far outweigh the form in which you speak. Trying to get better at that. That being said any change sucks, I Get it but My ultimate desire was to communicate not only my frustration at re-building/changing my bot team BECAUSE I enjoy Min/Max End-game type play and that involves alot of time. Also I REALLY dislike the RNG-ness of the XR gear/weapon/race system that I feel overly rewards randomness rather time/repetition. Time and repetition DO effect the desired reward variable but I cant stand soooo much RNG. What is even more frustrating is that I dont have a useful suggestion to replace/enhance it. Looking back now I do see alot of signs leading to these changes. Accounts I have never seen before popping on the server with big trade proposals AND the devaluing of certain items DID give tell tale signs of these changes. A while ago I posted a trade for a pair of XR GS for a pair of XR Falchions and did receive whispers of people with much lower counter offers and tidbits of dual wielding rising in prominence. I counted all those accounts as people I have missed since I took my break in 2009 and nothing more but as any good Monday morning Quarterback will tell you, the signs were there. Hell I couldnt trade my XR Falch with 2 Other XR weapons AND an XR book for Alufiend on Dec 5th (I did offer a trade to KE for Half Storm Archon with it but I knew he wanted to play that race and I just figured I would offer it to him since he only has one Falchion AND he explained that to me) Was with a player name I never seen before either. I feel like I am sounding a bit Paranoid and maybe this can all be explained by happenstance. I am known to be paranoid Frankly speaking. FWIW 30 Seconds is an ETERNITY in any boss/pitched fight but I will refrain from opening up more until I play and test more items.
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Post by sabregirl on Dec 17, 2020 21:36:06 GMT
Flat 2 minutes of 2 extra attacks usable 3 times a day while not using a boot slot (vestige boots finally!). Add unlimited GR pots usable UMD, two great dex feats. It's pretty nice if you ask me. Not really seeing how it's demonstrably worse than before ...
-S
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Post by boroie on Dec 17, 2020 23:41:54 GMT
Any chance of adding ranger AC to double weapons Funky? Sorry, I misread this the first go-round. Comes of zipping through posts. I don't honestly remember whey we don't allow it, other than lore/pnp. Adding to the discussion list for the team. Funky TWF feats say the weapon must be wieldable in the offhand, which you know.. double weapon. I'd really like to use double weapons but its just not practical currently
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2020 23:58:10 GMT
Alot of the critical pieces are either done or determined in that 2-2.5 minute range, the extra oomph making the impact to me. Honestly I don’t agree with this at all. 2 mins is a reasonable ‘supercharge’ amount for a boss fight, and being able to recast it makes this argument moot (consider Karsus which is 1x use of 1 min duration, and was still considered to be broken pre-RG nerf). The nerf to total duration would certainly make normal map clears slower, but shouldn’t significantly affect boss fights (in fact due to increased defence from freeing the boot slot, it probably improves boss fights).
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2020 10:11:34 GMT
The other thing to keep in mind is that, if I have interpreted the documentation correctly, it looks like Wrap has lost it's bonus attack now, effectively giving all non-self Divine Power casters -1 APR compared to before. This means the 'standard tank' end-game APR is now 5 instead of 6:
Pre-patch: Non-Harper = 6 APR Harper = 8 APR (+33% bonus APR)
Post-patch: Non-Harper = 5 APR Harper = 7 APR (+40% bonus APR)
Re: Harper vs Monk: temporary offence bonus vs long-term defence bonus has always been a trade-off players needed to decide between. The boots duration was Harper's *only* downside, but evidently still favoured Harpers in the current meta. The duration nerf was absolutely the correct change to be made.
Now with 1) a higher relative APR bonus (ie: Harpers deal relatively more damage than before); 2) three activations; and 3) open boot slot, it's really a pretty fair trade off. I think its hyperbolic to say that Monks were objectively worse pre-patch, but are now objectively better post-patch.
I had personally ditched Harper Scout back in the day anyway, since I felt the 2x5 mins weren't long enough steroids as it was, and Mass Haste was used during boss fights which caused Harpers to exceed the bonus APR cap (Paladin/Fighter/WM > Fighter/WM/Harper if both are under Mass Haste) - however, this was before the days of craftable XR weapons and raised canopic drop rates, back when no one used to mass spawn Limbo.
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Post by manuka on Dec 18, 2020 20:03:09 GMT
The other thing to keep in mind is that, if I have interpreted the documentation correctly, it looks like Wrap has lost it's bonus attack now, effectively giving all non-self Divine Power casters -1 APR compared to before. This means the 'standard tank' end-game APR is now 5 instead of 6: Pre-patch:Non-Harper = 6 APR Harper = 8 APR (+33% bonus APR)Post-patch:Non-Harper = 5 APR Harper = 7 APR (+40% bonus APR)Re: Harper vs Monk: temporary offence bonus vs long-term defence bonus has always been a trade-off players needed to decide between. The boots duration was Harper's *only* downside, but evidently still favoured Harpers in the current meta. The duration nerf was absolutely the correct change to be made. Now with 1) a higher relative APR bonus (ie: Harpers deal relatively more damage than before); 2) three activations; and 3) open boot slot, it's really a pretty fair trade off. I think its hyperbolic to say that Monks were objectively worse pre-patch, but are now objectively better post-patch. I had personally ditched Harper Scout back in the day anyway, since I felt the 2x5 mins weren't long enough steroids as it was, and Mass Haste was used during boss fights which caused Harpers to exceed the bonus APR cap (Paladin/Fighter/WM > Fighter/WM/Harper if both are under Mass Haste) - however, this was before the days of craftable XR weapons and raised canopic drop rates, back when no one used to mass spawn Limbo. Yeah its still the same, ditch hs in limbo p2h because the run is long and the amount of rests are low. The 2 x3min duration will be usefull for boss fights, but the majority of limbo p2h isnt the boss fights, they are fast and easy. Its the slog in-between that makes up the run time. How do people feel about a change of pace on hs? What if Tymora's smile was reduced to 1 extra attack, but the duration was made for map clear. Maybe 3 use a day lasting 10min each
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Post by desocupado on Dec 18, 2020 20:10:42 GMT
1 attack (stacking) with long duration would be attractive.
The boots could gain necromancy school immunity while we are at it.
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Post by manuka on Dec 18, 2020 20:13:37 GMT
1 attack (stacking) with long duration would be attractive. The boots could gain necromancy school immunity while we are at it. [bqr] It wouldnt stack with anything. Apart from haste and mass haste. And clockworkboots until they are removed. Attack stacking buffs are a massive problwm for 2h and dual weild balance
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