Looking for Feedback: Rog32 / Pal3 / PDK5

[tomaan]

It's been a long time since I've built a rogue so I could use some advice on a concept I'm working on.

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EDIT 1/19/21: playtest version based on user feedback and additional testing
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build goals (in order): 1) rogue duties 2) party support 3) damage output


Subrace: Half-Eladrin (+7 Str, +5 Cha, Great Cha 1, Great Cha 2, Div Shield and FC: Paladin)

Stats (character sheet) - (docks) - (level 60 +14) - (Max +16)

STR:	12	19	60	68
DEX:	15	15	33	42
CON:	14	14	28	36
INT:	14	14	28	36
WIS:	8	8	22	30
CHA:	14	21	36	44

all points to Str

AB (Max +16): 108
AC (Max +16): 135 (141 w/gird & strongheart)
Saves: F79 R80 W72

Feats
subbie: Gr Cha +2, Div Shield
rogue: Opportunist, Improved Evasion, Crippling Strike, Skill Mastery, Improved Sneak +2
pre-epic: Bullheaded, Weapon Focus, Power Attack, Mounted Combat (PDK req), Div Might, Greater Weapon Focus, Improved Crit
epic: Armor Skin, Epic Prowess, Epic Weapon Focus, Gr Cha +1, Gr Dex +1, Gr Str +2
legendary: Legendary Weapon Focus, Gr Str +1, LSA: Discipline, ESF: Search, Open Locks, Disable Trap, Gr Dex +1
paragon: Paragon Weapon Focus, Paragon Dex, Gr Dex +1, Environmental Adaptivity +3


Skills
Concentration (30)
Craft Armor
Craft Weapon
Disable Traps
Discipline
Hide
Listen
Open Locks
Parry
Pickpockets
Search
Set Traps (5)
Tumble (60)
UMD (50)


Notes:
Half-Eladrin gets key ability bonuses and has Paladin as a favorite class - there should be no xp pen
Div Might +17 with effective duration
This build uses Dex arti...CON or STR also work
This build probably won't go past Abyss; for endgame version, you might need to drop Great Dex 2 & 3 for Iron/Legendary Will
PDK Abilities:

• Fear DC = 64
• +2m to Final Stand radius
• 3.4 min of Rallying Cry per use

[tomaan]

Questions:

1) Epic Skill Focus or not? I'm a little light on rogue gear atm, so I took these feats to supplement. Current version takes Listen, Open Locks, Parry, Pickpocket, Discipline, Search. The alternative would be to put take more greater ability feats.

2) Rogue feats - I've heard mixed messages on Slippery Mind so I passed....was never sold on Defensive Roll....gambling a bit by passing on Improved Evasion. Thoughts?

3) Weapon? Concept build uses Kukri but I forgot that I need 35 levels of Rogue to get the extra multiplier. Need to go light for Opportunist....maybe handaxe for x3 crits?

4) Skills - I actually have about 150 skill points left....I maxed out Disable Trap just because. Was thinking about going with Set Traps but no real experience with them and not a lot of trap gear in the bank. Worth the investment?


any other advice/tips/suggestions are welcome!

[gatsu83ita]

Jan 13, 2021 23:24:03 GMT tomaan said:

Questions:

1) Epic Skill Focus or not? I'm a little light on rogue gear atm, so I took these feats to supplement. Current version takes Listen, Open Locks, Parry, Pickpocket, Discipline, Search. The alternative would be to put take more greater ability feats.

2) Rogue feats - I've heard mixed messages on Slippery Mind so I passed....was never sold on Defensive Roll....gambling a bit by passing on Improved Evasion. Thoughts?

3) Weapon? Concept build uses Kukri but I forgot that I need 35 levels of Rogue to get the extra multiplier. Need to go light for Opportunist....maybe handaxe for x3 crits?

4) Skills - I actually have about 150 skill points left....I maxed out Disable Trap just because. Was thinking about going with Set Traps but no real experience with them and not a lot of trap gear in the bank. Worth the investment?


any other advice/tips/suggestions are welcome!

My 2cent:

1) Your end INT modifier is 1 point short to reach 127 cap without ESkF feats. cause 63+50 = 113 - 127 = 14! 14 is the "gap" u need to cover with Ability modifier or Feats. In your case your lvl 80 +16 gear will be +13 on INT not allowing u to do full rogue duties. And quite a long journey to reach 80! So ESkF on DT OL and Search is a must. Dunno about Disc/Parry and surely PP (never have so many "free" feats to be able to pick all of those, even on a fighter!) You can pick Epic Will cause is your lower save instead too.

2) If u dont pick Epic Dodge u can skip Defensive Roll, but surely Impr Evasion is a nice feat to have. On your bonus rogue feats u can get: Skill Master, Impr Evasion, Opportunist, Crippling Strike and then i would pick impr sneak feats or ESkF if u cant fit them all in "normal" epic lvls.

3) your choice! 

4) Put 5 point in Set Trap for the synergy with Disable Traps. I would have picked BullHead as 1st lvl feat to get LSA:Discipline on LL and max discipline. Dunno if Spending 2 feats for divine might is worth the benefit. 

[Paradoom]

You are missing search in your skills listing. I absolutly agree with gatsu. Take defensive roll and epic dodge, as that is an incredible defence boost and should fit in easily if you play around with feats a bit. Otherwise you can skip both.

Improved evasion garantees half damage on sources that allow a reflex save and none if you make it. Helps alot against casters using damage spells on you and probably good to pick up, since you are not a dexer.

Morning Star (works also with opportunist) is also a weapon option as you can can 2h that for some extra oomph and does well with strength builds, but it is up to you.

pre-demi with + 14 stats your rogue skill will max out at:

skill: base + mod + cap + other = X

disable trap: 63 + 9 + 50 + 2 = 124
open lock: 63 + 11 + 50 = 124
search: 63 + 9 + 50 = 122

with maxed out stats (+2x demi, +16 gear, +2 paragon):

disable trap: 63 + 13 + 50 + 2 = 128
open lock: 63 + 15 + 50 = 128
search: 63 + 13 + 50 = 126

Maxed out you can do your rogue stuff, if you have items with skill-focus search. Before that you will have to take ESF/SF skill feats. Otherwise you will not be able to do your rogue duties. Also dont forget to take 5 points in set trap for the +2 synergy bonus to disable trap.

Regarding traps:

The damage of traps is nothing to joke about, but the problem is use and time investment.
- You cannot set them down properly during combat.
- They take way to long to setup. (1 at a time, taking a full round)
- Not usable in a group, unless they are willing to make a 30 minute run into 2h+ run.
- maximum stack size is 5, so cannot use them all in one spot as megabomb = forces you to move with good chance to spawn something unwillingly before you are even finished.

Leftover skill points:

Spot is a good one to pick up. Helps you against the limbo mobs stopping you from using heal potions.

[woqued]

Are you sure about half-eladrin? Seems subpar since you don't make the most of div shield either. -2 str gnome, +0 dex, +0 int (despite the skills from Gnome, doesnt help with skillduty cover from stats).

Undying seems better unless PDK becomes too useless with it. Less str, but no -2, +2 dex, cheaper starting stat allocation. Much lesser cha, but still some. Increased amount of dex+int+skills, no exp pen, elven searching, but has the downside that you can't PWA MStar for the occasional 2h duty - but that build highly requires paragon/+14/+16/demi cha stats to allow PDK abilities reasonable duration, but then again h-e low dex/no edodge makes 2hing scary. Undying would also let u reach +30 base dex for E-Dodge at CL 60, assuming you take Slippery & Imp Evasion - also allows skipping non-int based ESF. I'd also try to fit OC/DC in since you go STR based, your LL feats should allow for it.

All in all, I'd say Half-Eladrin only comes ahead in PDK skill duration and the potential to PWA into 2h mstar when pure dmg is needed, in every other conceivable way Undying seems superior. I haven't played a PDK so I don't know how high CHA you need to make it feel good to use.

Good idea trying to make rog/pdk work, I've ran several through my mind but haven't settled on a winner thus far. Concept should work well enough.

[tomaan]

Paradoom - corrected....I do have search in this build but forgot to list it.

not ready to go glass cannon on this one yet, so will probably stick with sword/board

woqued - you are correct: H-E was primarily for CHA bonus...not only for PDK skills but also for saves and Div Might (tried to get as close to Weapon Specialization as possible). Undying was actually my choice for a fighter or monk splash, but I'll give it another look.

(never have so many "free" feats to be able to pick all of those, even on a fighter!)

gatsu83ita - I specifically chose this class mix for that very reason: pally splash is worth at 3-4 saves feats....PDK LLAB bonus is worth 6 Great Str feats. That said, I really only have 1 or 2 feats to "burn" - the others are "path choices" in that I'll need to use them, I'm just not sure where yet.

definitely leaning towards Improved Evasion, but don't think I'll have enough Dex to fit Epic Dodge. Will post an updated version later today. Thanks!

[tomaan]

First playtest version is now posted in OP; confirmed that, when all said and done, I have 2 "extra" feats....I used them on Great Dex, but I'm thinking about putting them into Cha for +1 div might and +1m of last stand radius(?)

Changes:

• Dropped some Epic Skill Focus feats and added Bullheaded/LSA Discipline, and +2 Great Dex
• Stats, saves and AC updated to reflect added Dex
• Used extra skill points: Set Traps (5), Discipline (max), UMD (increased to 50)
• added notes to increase Will saves for endgame build
• added Improved Evasion
• swapped to handaxe (not listed)

I tested Undying and Half-Guardinal.....Half-Eladrin is still best (among my current subbies) for this build's role. The -2 str doesn't help but it's still a net +5 overall....that and the Cha boost ended up being difference makers. Divine Shield might be nerfed, but will still work as an emergency dodge AC boost if rezzed and facing layer penalties.