Dex artifact

[yune]

Can the dex arti give permanent daze immunity? Right now even dexers are using strength or int arti for the stun or confuse immunity, while the dex artis are rotting in people's bankchests or left on the ground where they drop.

[Deleted]

I love this idea. Very compelling application. Fully support.

[boroie]

Sept 18, 2021 1:03:20 GMT @prepared said:

I love this idea. Very compelling application. Fully support.

It would certainly add something to that arti. I mean darkness is useful in one run, but yeah.

The other artifacts need some love too though. How about the speed arti? You could add FTS immune there (too fast to petrify!). Con arti? Bring back absolute poison immune. Saves arti? Maybe make the skills boost outside the magic cap? Or do something like the fighter immute 1/day. 

[woqued]

Counterproposal: nerf str/int arties! Remove stun/conf imm, add.. idk... very smort & intelligent, immune to amni for the wizurds int arti and str arti only gives +4 vs str checks, no stun imm.

Get rekt

[boroie]

Yup that certainly is the counterproposal I was thinking of. If the other artifacts suffer in comparison to str/int then instead of bringing the others up, lower the big two down to the level of the rest. Not really what I'd prefer but its a possibility for sure.

[yune]

Cha arti needs help too. Likely the worst right now, the immunity is bleh and the active power is useless. Dex arti could also give permanent immunity to gaze-like attacks that get blocked by being blind or in darkness like Narzugon instakill, Bodak death cone, Chaond Primalist stoning, which fits the darkness theme.

[woqued]

It should be noted that the artifacts shouldn't be compared strictly based on their immunities, but the universal usefulness of their stats.

Dex > all in universal usefulness, dc casters likely prioritize either their own stat or Spen regardless of the immunities on said artifacts, etc. It's not quite as cut and dry as "conf/stun op, deafness teh suck". Dex artifact should in all likelihood always have the worst immunity and/or ability on it, and the Int artifact should be one of the better ones - as they are. In this vein, Dex definitely shouldn't have one of the better flat immunities, nor should STR imo. The abilities are a better buffing point imo. Not saying that's why it happened it may very well have more to do with lore reasons originally, who knows.

Str one is turbo popular because melee/bot type characters are big beneficiaries and stun immunity is very common in *current* popular endgame runs. I'd also highly recommend to refrain from the "cool imms: daze, stun, conf; i'd like to have a shopping cart of easy access to these imms" -approach to item/class changes, else the gearing metagame could become too simpleminded or those immunities become just another misc immunity that don't have value. I was trolling before when I was talking about nerfing the better arties, but after thinking about it and seeing as how "easy gearing is getting with XR items and top tier sets" in other posts, it seems like the superior approach.

----

That being said, maybe dex could be buffed in some way, perhaps it could indeed grant immunity to *some* gazing attacks or perhaps blind; being immune to all of them would make it op imo.

[yune]

Daze is the least valuable immunity out of stun/confuse/daze both because it's on a UR aug and because you can break yourself out of it with clarity pots or drink heals while dazed.

[woqued]

It is in many ways easier to deal with than stun/conf, but it is still to my knowledge considered more or less mandatory to cover as part of the "strong, reliable endgame character"; especially for melee and/or multiboxed characters who don't want to be chugging clarity potions every other second or may want to use their augment slots for something else - like set items to cover... you know, stun/conf.

It is so common as a debilitating effect that it might as well be mandatory to cover for a well rounded character is what I'm saying, and as such it has big value on a stat artifact. Else, you probably wouldn't have suggested it.

[Deleted]

Under the lens of things you’ve just described Woqued I think the STR artifact is in the perfect place. Providing daze time DEX would make it too powerful. A dex based toon getting an AB, AC, and free critical immunity? It would be a catalyst in swinging the momentum or balancing it when that’s already focal point.

I think you’re into something with the gaze like attacks and / or even just FTS. With the introduction of XRs and their prevalence, and good set loot. I would argue it’s harder to cover some things because there is more to cover. Esoterica. Half kickback more consistently. Varying combinations of mord, breach, and dispel, and a more genuine need for flat imms.

A genuine one size fits all like a DEX artifact also providing daze would
that some. I also think that another artifact that isn’t DEX providing daze wouldn’t be terrible. The speed artifact getting some love. Whether that fits is another thing but it needs a bump.

I also agree with you on the stat stick vs spell pen bit and the meta skews spell pen currently. Likely that changes and the DC or the balance between is found again irregardless of any other factors.

Mechanus likely isn’t the run to do that with it and Limbo on the same self described progression arc of run difficulty.

The STR artifact appears more powerful than it is when DEX toons are harder to build, make viable, and become competitive with due to % damage and other factors all being chunked through. The powerful misc imm, paired with AB or AC is sound. And a lower tier option like FTS or gaze stuff makes sense where one gets more from that single source.

It’s hard to say until the DEX vs STR argument becomes more clear and where exactly the devs wish to see that line up before you do more with it though. I’d like to hope, and what makes the most sense to me, is that DEX and STR toons when on even footings are expected to be quite comparable in terms of sturdiness, viability, damage output, etc. effectively providing different play styles and when done well, finding similar results.

Defining that will help then in determining the “what and how” of your DEX artifact and other adjustments.

[chirality]

I think it's easy to envision an Elder Evil zone where something like crit imm, spell imm Atropals with colossal truefear auras make wis arti the new go-to for tanks, or for the confusion-spamming Fungus Warden and it's scarier big bro the paragon Psilofyr's Chosen to make int arti the new go-to, even sooner.

I don't think artis should ever have become synonymous with a critical and "currently required for endgame tanks" status immunity that replaces the need for it from specialized gear. Critical, maybe (see below), but not for tanks, and not critical or far-reaching in application enough to make a no-brainer meta choice.

I think artis should provide +2 to a stat and a little fluff on top of that. The fact that tanks have long relied on artis as something far more than that has always contributed to a feeling of "this is the choice for 9/10 builds" which isn't fun, and is the type of meta where things move into the dreaded "this is considered mandatory" territory.

The history of debating the nature of "gotta-have-it" arti-tier status imm is venerable. I think it speaks for itself that an entire special attack mechanic was completely revamped because an artifact made the entire system broken.

Obviously re-doing everything from the ground up at this point isn't a realistic option (or even desirable), but the issue of artifacts being primarily tierlisted based on their value as free gearslot really makes it difficult to balance, since the juxtaposition of +2 stat and immunity that is essentially unavailable from nearly any other permanent source aside from frontloaded or main-CC class features is just a crapshoot. Free XR-tier aug, free UR-tier aug, primary attribute, worthless attribute, in any combination, the artifact equation reduces down to either too-good-to-skip-for or trash. When it's too good to skip, it's because the endgame zone requires it or because it exists only for DC/SP maxing. There's no middle road. Maybe there shouldn't be, and maybe no one ever said there should be, but the artifact game has always been a revolving flavor-of-the-week for tanks, depending on whichever status immunity is most valuable for the current endgame. Trying to "balance" the out-of-favor ones with the current golden boy is kind of a bummer, because it means either buffing things that could end up better on their own anyway when a new zone drops, or nerfing the one that could end up downgraded anyway. Or, again, in the case of con arti, it could mean actually retooling the way mobs work because there was no pretty solution. Anyone wanna see stun and stun imm and str arti get a similar treatment to poison and con arti? Yeah, I doubt anyone wants to code it, either.

[yune]

About the con arti, I think it should give auto-success on the tumble checks for half KD duration as a homage to its old self. Extra flavor for XDDs since those never take tumble over 30, so never pass the tumble checks.