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Post by tomaan on Oct 3, 2021 19:21:18 GMT
Spent most of my time back on HG looking at str and near/uni builds. Finally getting around to Dexers. The way I see it, there are three primary archetypes for Dexer: - DPS - AA, pure rogue, GI(?), Slinger
- Insta-Kill - assassin, ranger
- Support - bard, max rogue skills, disarmer, dex lash/slinger affliction
In terms of requirements, you want (no particular order): - Uncanny Dodge/Defensive Awareness - protect 25-30 points of AC
- 44 STR (base 18 @ lvl 60 & paragon anchoring) - covers most hells/abyss checks
- Discipline 120 - discpline maxes at 124 with 18 base str at lvl 60....need skill focus feat?
- Concentration 60 - check gear...may need to take up to 35 skill points to make sure it's covered
- Parry 120 - 50% crit imm, mortal strike imm, balor vorpal sword imm
Thinking out loud/speculating: - R24/BG16 dex lash = 6 FEs + 28% max infliction + high survivability = DPS?
- Leverage Monk attack progression to nick/cut em to death...ineffective against high level (ie hells/abyss+) mobs?
- Can small weapon still disarm supes/elites?
feedback/comments/suggestions welcome EDIT 1: added slinger to DPS and support per Methes
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Post by Methes on Oct 3, 2021 20:41:11 GMT
You're missing a Slinger. Dex based are better, have moderate damage once leveled up, bring great party utility and substantial damage increase with their DR reduction in Abyss+. Also are very easy to gear.
IIRC *on paper* dual wielding monk has higher DPS than str 2handers but are also more expensive to gear due to KB and two weapons costs.
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Post by desocupado on Oct 4, 2021 0:27:04 GMT
What about fighters? They can splash monk, weapon master and still have weapon spec and wheatstone.
What's shadows dancer spot right now?
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Post by tomaan on Oct 4, 2021 1:22:17 GMT
What about fighters? They can splash monk, weapon master and still have weapon spec and wheatstone. What's shadows dancer spot right now? that's kinda why I started this thread to be honest: checked and don't really see any recent SD dexer builds so not really sure where to place them... ...not sure if fighter/monk can generate enough damage to compete with AA/Rogue/Slinger, or how much a small Monk weapon would impact disarm (see third bullet point at end)? Seems like you'd want and AB at/around 112-113 at least (which should be reachable with BUR subby) thoughts? - yeah, the KB is a concern...especially when it's a stacking damage affliction - it may also be worth it to use a torch in off-hand for added survivability: could make up for the loss of 2x attacks
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Post by Methes on Oct 4, 2021 4:23:58 GMT
Fighter over monk CC comes down to personal preference and gear available. Monk 21/WM 7/FTR 12 gives huge mind imm bonus along with one survivability feat. Easier to fit other imms then. Fighter gets dual conceal but you need to be richer.
You need to get phys mod. up somehow. Wep spec, divine might etc. all make str mod less statiatically important, number of attacks then plays the main part in comparison to 2hand mod and DR penetration. So chose classes accordingly.
SDs already gain huge innate defensive abilities so making them dex makes little sense. Their AB will be always low and you can make a different dex tank that's better, so why go dex with them. Plus they get bonus attack which synergises with 2h not dual wielding. Polywhirl made a nice point about them back in the day.
I'd never go for a torch. They're usually pretty weak and the 2 attacks you lose are huge dps killer. The survivability bonus you might get from it (net dps increase) is far lower than what 2 attacks bring dps wise even with a few more heals.
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Post by tomaan on Oct 4, 2021 19:46:31 GMT
Assuming KB isn't an issue, then, the goal for a Monk CC or splash is maximum number of attacks at the highest possible AB. A dual wielder with 16+BAB gets 9 attacks per round at -2.....10 attacks per round at -4 (flurry)....BUT 2 of those attacks are at 1/2 str modifier on damage. Not a huge difference considering the modifier is low, but still a difference on a build with low damage/hit to begin with. How, then, can we get the extra attacks without the loss of AB or damage? A few options: - Spells: Tensers and Divine Power have caster level requirements, but would generate the same number of attacks/AB as a dual-wield, max tier class (CL55) and at pretty good duration/cast. Mass Haste won't help AB, but a toon with BAB<16 could still hit the same number of attacks as a BAB16+ dual wielder (LSF: Trans required)
- Class Abilities: COT and SD get an additional attack per round; you'd benefit from the +2 AB but would still get 1 fewer attack than a dual wielder, and both classes are probably better suited for STR builds - still, COT would take care of the stacking KB/de-buff issue.... Tymora's Smile gets you the same number of attacks as a dual-wielder, but duration is an issue: you need 40 combined Dex/Cha modifier just to get 6 minutes use per rest. Maybe if you timed it correctly? ... Hard to see the PDK extra attack working due to limited duration and I don't see any class combination that would benefit from the PDK boost to LBAB
- Items: Clockwork Boots, like COT/SD would still come up 1 attack/round short and you'd be sacrificing quite a bit of defense;
Hypothetical numbers (Assume AB: 109 and BAB16+): Dual Wield - 6 attacks at 100+ AB: - Main Hand: 107/104/101/98/95/92
- Off Hand: 107/104
- Haste: 107
CL55 Tenser/Divine Power - 7 attacks at 100+ AB: - main hand: 109/106/103/100/97/94
- haste: 109
- Spell: 109/106 (that's how it looked in logs...can somebody confirm?)
COT/SD/PDK, Clockwork Boots - 6 attacks at 100+AB - main hand: 109/106/103/100/97/94
- haste: 109
- ability: 109
Tymora's Smile - 7 attacks at 100+ AB - main hand: 109/106/103/100/97/94
- haste: 109
- ability: 109/106 (second attack AB not confirmed)
Seems like an opportunity in there for a 56/3/1 battle caster.... even if you gave up -1 AB(108) and BAB (15), you'd still have 6 attacks at 100+ AB....the 7th at 99 AB
- main hand: 108/105/102/99/96
- haste: 108
- Spell: 108/105 (that's how it looked in logs...can somebody confirm?)
(come to think of it...the drop in AB and number of attacks shouldn't happen, because both spells give the equivalent of lvl56 fighter?) phys damage would still fall far short of a two-hander, but the the extra 2D from self-buffed elemental damage could be interesting on the right opponent EDIT: checked and confirmed that Tensers' does not boost BAB, only LBAB and it didn't grant the 6th main hand attack (as far as I could tell via the logs) .... 56CL would cost you at least 1 AB and 1 attack/round
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Post by simpetar on Oct 5, 2021 15:27:29 GMT
What damage a build can do on paper is only one side of the equation. When you introduce the other one (enemies and in particular their DR), the plans for dexer-monk-splash-thing-with-gazillions-APR will crumble. Enemies in hells have only physical DR, usually in the 5-15 range. That's where you will be only slightly worse than a 2h. Abyss introduces elemental and exotic DR on top of physical. 20/- isn't uncommon (or even higher, looking at you, Obox-ob). While you can tickle enemies to death, this is where strength based damage and the extra 20% become noticeable. Limbo is even less welcoming to wet noodles. Example: Blue Slaad's 45, 45, 40 physical DR (not even counting immunities) is enough to stop any dexer monk weapon. If your goal is damage, but you still want to stick to high dex, your best bets are AA/slinger/rogue/GI. They deal high packets of damage regardless of their main stat: Xd20 for the ranged toons or 30d6 for fully sneaking rogue.
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Post by tomaan on Oct 5, 2021 16:45:37 GMT
Speaking of damage (perfect segue @simp!)...
...I feel like it should probably be secondary for the Dexer for obvious reasons - seems like party utility/support should be a primary goal.
That said, are there any other builds that could possibly fit into the "DPS" category (monk weapons or otherwise)? Would they compete with AA or Slinger?
Holy Tank - while Pally/BG/COT abilities are centered around STR, Divine Might/Wrath could bump physical damage into the passable range: STR: 14 (creation) --> 18 (Class bonuses) --> 22 (demix2) --> 24 (paragon) --> 40 (+16) = +15 CHA: 16 (creation) --> 20 (Pal/BG Class bonuses) --> 24 (demi x2) --> 26 (paragon) --> 42 (+16) = +16 x 1.5 (Div Might/Wrath) = +24
HEAVY fighter splash and Prince win could bump it as high as +71: 39 + 20 (specialization) + 4 (warrior whetstone@f12) + 8 = 71
Throw in Prayer and Divine Favor and you're at +79 total BG CC could probably add 12-15d of sneaks (with help from gear)
Fighter CC - splash Rogue for sneaks or Pal/BG/C for (nerfed) Div Might. Warrior Whetstone would hit +14 on a 56/3/1 build...but I'm not sure it would be enough?
Sneaks - per @simp, take Rogue/Asn/BG levels and use gear to boost. No way to get sneak immunity bypass but can add a little punch against trash mobs
Ranger/FEs - Positive damage is very effective against undead and mobs with low resistances/immunities. Bane of Enemies adds a small boost to physical damage. Still, you'd have to splash in another class (or two) to add physical damage to this build, and that means compromising or giving up Called Shot. Not sure it's worth it.
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...and then there's the issue with crit range/multiplier (or lack thereof). Not an issue against crit immune, but will really cost you against the aforementioned trash mobs that other classes are tearing through. A couple of thoughts:
Crippling Strike will add range and multiplier but requires 35 Rogue levels to maximize. That also works out to ~18d sneaks and enough points for 2 or 3 rogue skills, so there is some synergy in this path
WM increased multiplier and Ki Critical are also options, but a pretty big commitment when splashing onto another CC
OC/DC - probably need demix2 to get the minimum required strength to take these feats, but you would make almost all str checks in Hells and Abyss. The multiplier stacks with WM, meaning you could get up to x4 on Monk weapons with a 50/5/5 build.
Rogue seems to be the only option where abilities and build goals are in alignment...the others appear to be forcing square pegs into round holes.
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Post by magecat on Oct 6, 2021 13:12:02 GMT
What's shadows dancer spot right now? First, let me say that I am out of practice, but, it has seemed to me for a couple of years that SD has mostly been relegated to Curse Sniping when I have played with a side of preventing party wipes by having unlimited, on demand, GS. Now, Curse Sniping was useful in the past for parties where charging in is ill advised since it only aggro'd the one critter and could range most maps, but in the current climate, my experience might be antiquated. From a DPS perspective, like many specialist classes, SD can be somewhat niche because of the number of things less suspectible to Negative.
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Post by tomaan on Oct 6, 2021 16:20:17 GMT
Last but least: party utility/support
Since damage will be minimal, utility/support needs to be optimal - meaning you have to be able to fill a role in all areas of the server. To that end, we have:
Meat Shields: With high AC and conceal, this should be the standard for all dexers.
Buffers: Most weapon buffs can be covered by cores, but the Holy Tank option would be able to offer Divine buff....Ranger has mini-shunt & camo....Fighter can keen/small damage boost with the Whetstone
Snipers: Take out/incapacitate high value targets. Fast. Mostly for ranged, but could also include Mortal Strike or melee Called Shot.
Helpers: Bard is the most obvious, followed by Rogue (either CC or splash for Rogue skills)
De-Buffers: Lash/Slinger infliction, disarm, taunt/bluff/persuade, poisons
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Since I've been back, it seems like Helpers are most in-demand (especially for higher level runs) and Snipers are most in-use
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Post by yune on Oct 7, 2021 15:15:37 GMT
You can get enough AC with sword and board and strength, so why would you ever go dex unless forced to (ala Stormlord)? Dexers do far less damage and outside of one "dex" build, can't 2h their weapon. The exception being a small toon with intuitive attack and monk 2handing a scimitar. Trying to dual-wield monk weapons locks you to the zio robes with how much kb you take and you still do less damage than a strength sword and board in abyss+ runs, both because of DR and no oc/dc unless you're lucky. OC/DC are massive increases to DPS when mobs have dr to everything. The zio robes make you paper thin compared to a good light armor on a strength toon or the limbo p2 robes on a strength monk. Dual wielding even costs you an entire gear slot compared to sword and board.
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Post by tomaan on Oct 7, 2021 17:45:37 GMT
I'm in agreement with yune when it comes to dual-wield - just don't think the extra attacks are worth the loss of ab and equipment slot, whether it's a shield or torch, not to mention the kb As to "why a dexer?" Because it's there! But seriously, having considered all points, I think support/utility has to be the top priority for a dexer - you have to make up for the lack of damage output and this is the best way to do it. Proven Builds (no particular order) - plenty of examples of these in the forums...not going into any detail in this post Dexer Bard - you'll always be welcome in every run! Dex Rogue - go pure for sneak-immunity bypass...not quite as in-demand as a bard, but most runs can always use a searcher/picker Stormlord - hadn't even thought of this one (thanks yune)...looks like a DPSer? Arcane Archer - some gear dependencies but good damage nonetheless Slinger - while not technically a "dexer", a wis-based build seems to offer the best balance of damage output and support go Dex or go home! Dex Ranger - melee build that can also CS with a bow where appropriate Concepts (no particular order) - there HAS to be more than one way to skin this cat! None of these has been tested Brigand - dex lash with a rogue splash; logic: pickpock and open lock benefit from high dex modifier subrace: Elf, Undying classes: Rgr 23 - BG 14 - Rog 3 role: Support/Utility features: disarm, 2 Rogue skills, search, sneaks, evasion, uncanny dodge, damage infliction notes: - Disarm may not work against supes/elites - Undying suffers no xp pen and gets +60 skill points in LL - Damage infliction of 26%/13% against up to 6 FEs....15%/7.5% against everything else Dex Battle Cleric - this has been tried in the past....maybe due for a re-visit/re-work logic: Wis-based slinger can't tank Males and Balors subrace: Halfling, Furchin classes: Cle 35 - Pal 4 - Mon 1 role: Support/Utility features: cleric epics, weapon buffs notes: - You might be able to use Human, Zenythri as well (no xp pen) Holy Tank - if I was going to dual-wield, it would probably be this build logic: Monk attack progression and high phys damage should compete with sword-n-board for damage output subrace: Elf, Undying classes: Pal 26 - Ftr 12 - Mon 2 role: DPS features: self-buffing, disarm, makes some str-checks, dual-wield notes: - Could struggle against opponents with high physical resistance; - Disarm may not work against supes/elites Nimble Knight - elemental damage specialist logic: Focus on elemental vulnerabilities of enemies with crit/sneak immunity subrace: Human, Zenythri classes: BG 26 - Sor 13 - M 1 role: DPS features: self-buffing, sneaks, makes some str checks notes:- Elemental buffs: FEC (5d), D(3d) - Could struggle against opponents who are resistant to FECD - Zenythri should avoid xp pen...if not may need to go with Undying
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Post by chainlink on Oct 7, 2021 20:27:10 GMT
If you want a damaging dexer make an AA, whilst you could do something similar with a slinger they are usually better suited to going Wisdom based.
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Post by desocupado on Oct 8, 2021 1:40:34 GMT
Which things can a wisdom based slinger do? Maybe implode fumes/constructs with 0 SR?. What else?
Extra slots and viability as a soak tank in divine chorus + magic vestment + greater restoration.
Full DC for epic qnd paragon spells.
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Post by chainlink on Oct 8, 2021 6:27:05 GMT
Because you have to burn Wis to gen level 9 spells and take Zen archery you're already part way down that route, however its a sidetrack to the make an AA comment.
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