Rogue decision

[Yojimbo]

I am looking at two build ideas for my Rogue which I think I want to reinc ideally after 2nd demi and a prince win if I can swing the prince win too.

I mainly have two ideas for it one is a variation on the current build the 2nd is a new idea

Build	Base Stats	Stats+12	Saves(+12 Stats +20 Bonus)	AC (BUR +12 Stats w/ Boosted CA)	AB (+12 Stats +20 Bonus w/ Boost CW)	Base Skills	Skills (+12 Stats +50 Bonus)
Rogue 35/PDK 5	STR: 42 DEX: 26 CON: 12 WIS: 8 INT: 16 CHA: 12	STR: 54 DEX: 38 CON: 24 WIS: 20 INT: 28 CHA: 24	Fortitude: 53 Reflex: 60 Will: 55	129	98	Appraise: 63 Concentration: 15 Craft Armor: 45 Craft Weapon: 63 Disable Trap: 63 Discipline: 63 Hide: 63 Intimidate: 1 Listen: 63 Open Lock: 63 Parry: 63 Persuade: 1 Pick Pocket: 63 Ride: 2 Search: 63 Set Trap: 5 Spot: 2 Tumble: 60 UMD: 1	Appraise: 122 Concentration: 54 Craft Armor: 104 Craft Weapon: 122 Disable Trap: 127+ Discipline: 127+ Hide: 127 Intimidate: 40 Listen: 118 Open Lock: 127 Parry: 127 Persuade: 40 Pick Pocket: 127 Ride: 48 Search: 127+ Set Trap: 51 Spot: 39 Tumble: 124 UMD: 58
Rogue 35/Blackguard 4/Ranger 1	STR: 26 DEX: 44 CON: 14 WIS: 10 INT: 16 CHA: 4	STR: 38 DEX: 56 CON: 26 WIS: 22 INT: 28 CHA: 16	Fortitude: 59 Reflex: 72 Will: 59	131	95	Appraise: 63 Concentration: 26 Craft Armor: 63 Craft Weapon: 63 Disable Trap: 63 Discipline: 63 Hide: 63 Listen: 63 Open Lock: 63 Parry: 63 Pick Pocket: 63 Search: 63 Set Trap: 5 Tumble: 60 UMD: 1	Appraise: 122 Concentration: 84 Craft Armor: 122 Craft Weapon: 122 Disable Trap: 127+ Discipline: 127 Hide: 127+ Listen: 127+ Open Lock: 127+ Parry: 127+ Pick Pocket: 127+ Search: 127+ Set Trap:78 Tumble: 127+ UMD: 54

[simpetar]

Looking at these numbers, I would gravitate towards the BG splashed build. But that said, would you share a bit more about your ideas? It seems bit odd that you should less AB on a build with higher stat, not to mention quite low AC on a dexer... is it a dual wielding wemic rogue? At any rate, that upper build has absolutely atrocious saving throws, barely enough for hells and true death wish anywhere beyond hells, they really should be in low-mid 60s range at least at lvl 60.

P.S. on behalf of all succubi, incubi, and laghati, I would like to thank you for having 4 base charisma, you shall be eaten alive

[Yojimbo]

The PDK changes LBAB from 12 to 13 to explain the difference in AB right now the PDK is built on a Half-Guardinal while the other is a variant of my Wemic Rog/CoT/Rng build and Large suffer -1 AB. The AC for both assumes Light Armor & Small Shield as a worst case scenario for the DEX it has the large -1 AC and light armor caps DEX bonus so robes should provide better AC. I agree about the PDK saves but not sure where or how to further the Saves on it without giving up more Rogue levels and this would be a reinc of a rogue with a moliated glint so have to maintain 35 Rogue levels minimum. I know the CHA sucks on the 2nd besides maybe 2 less DEX and/or 2 less CON not sure where or how else to boost it.

[simpetar]

I took a liberty, and played a little bit with the PDK splash build, here is how it turned out:

str 16/20 +18 pts during leveling
dex 16/20 +2 pts during leveling
con 12
wis 8
int 14/16
cha 8/10

progression: 16 rogue - 4 pdk (don't forget to max out discipline at lvl 20) - 19 rogue - 1 pdk (max out discipline)

strong soul
iron will
great fortitude
wf: kukri
gwf: kukri
mounted combat
ic: kukri

improved evasion (rog)
skill mastery (rog)
crippling strike (rog)
---
ewf: kukri
epic prowess
armor skin
epic reflex
3x great strength

opportunist (rog)
esf: discipline (rog)
defensive roll (rog)
slippery mind (rog)
---
legendary hardened soul
legendary will
legendary fortitude
lwf: kukri
3x great strength
---
pwf: kukri
paragon balance
epic dodge
3x environmental adaptivity

numbers at lvl 60, counting with +14 gear (it's plentiful / augmentable):
AB: 99
Will: 62
Fortitude: 67
Reflex: 65
AC (with average BURs): 131

notes:
1. PDK unfortunately doesn't give any additional proficiencies, you can only use rogue stuff. Kukri is the weapon of choice (HG treats it as rogue weapon) and should be a decent pick. For shield proficiency you can a) use BUR breach boots, b) asmo amulet, c) read shield pandect, d) use anything else with shield prof on it. Alternatively, if you are ok with relying on equipment for shield prof, you could shuffle feats around, settle for little less AB (drop 2x strength feats), read disarm / KD pandect and take the corresponding legendary / paragon feats for even more utility.
2. No LSA: discipline, but you will be juuuust fine, hitting 127 cap at lvl 60 and then even better after demi and PL bonuses.
3. Rogue skills are bit tight, especially search and disarm trap, but as you wrote that it's gonna be a reinc after x2 demi, they should be ok. In the worst case scenario, you can slap something with a cheap Embroidered augment and always make sure you have something with +16 intelligence on it.
4. Moliated Guildmaster's Glint is awesome, rogues nowadays usually supplement it with Brazier of Painful Truth (aka the vestige search stick), as soon as they get a prince win.

EDIT:

a point about skills:
Appraise is nice and dandy, but IMO there are better candidates for Ixion handlers / ghostly echo restorers, such as a loot wizards or others. You might get some mileage from pushing UMD little harder, even if for this hat alone, or the crit ring for swap (for fights like Quimath etc.).
I would go something like this:

discipline 43
tumble 60
listen max +20 in PLs
parry max +20 in PLs
hide max +20 in PLs
CA, CW max
OL / DT / search max
set trap 5
concentration 20 (cross-class)
PDK pre-reqs couple points
UMD: the leftovers (somewhere in the 50s)

[boroie]

I made my rogue with PDK 4 and Pally 1. 
It works pretty well but it was built that way due to a lack of wraps. I may re-inc to a more classic build. 

[Yojimbo]

I was debating dropping LSA Discipline particularly on the STR PDK option which would allow for better saves and save feats. I can't recall the value of Appraise or UMD so I just kind of dumped the points in those as I did as just a place to spend all points. I was thinking UMD was mostly for casting scrolls than for any gear in HG and I thought Appraise had more value than for forge and augments. The build also currently spends a feat on shield proficiency for the PDK option while the other gets it from BG.

I could see shifting skills on PDK to max Craft Armor, bump Concentration to 20, UMD to to 30, and the remainder back to Appraise and if I don't go with LSA Discipline that adds another 20 points to the pool to dump into those.

Just an added note for clarity the above numbers are given at L60 with no PLs and any skill listed as 127+ means according to spreadsheet calculation it will have more than the 127 cap. Since this would be for a reinc I plan to keep the weapon as a Morningstar which qualifies as a "Light weapon" for the Rogue feats even when medium sized and STR focused. They both pick up Epic Dodge and neither picks up OC/DC as they are barely worth anything with Rogue feats.

I also originally planed a 31 Rog/4 Pld/5 PDK but realized it would mean the glint wouldn't work for this toon otherwise it was everything my PDK here is with saves that don't need any worries.

I might play with the PDK more it adds nice utility to the build, which rogues are more utility, but the AB boost really brings up its power.

[Yojimbo]

Dropping Blooded & LSA Discipline for Strong Soul & Leg Harden Soul and dropping Discipline to 43 will give 20 points to redistribute to other skills and boost saves to 59F/60R/61W while leaving most everything else the same for the PDK option.

[chirality]

I guess you mean Bullheaded? (Blooded is the Tumble enabler)

If you're not set on h-g, I'd consider undying.

The build simp posted would surely be solid, but even sticking pdk, I'd prolly go 4 and 1pal as boroie mentioned.

I would take something else (another esf, imp sneak) over slippery mind. I don't think it has much actual benefit, because probably the only thing that it works on are casted instakill spells that you want immumity for anyway if you aren't already essentially immune (like weird). I suppose in theory it could save you from a double 1 on weird or a 1 on rebuke but I'd rather have another esf or a sneak rank over that.

[jelricle]

What is the impact of Appraise on Ixion?
Does Appraise have any impact when on a run?

If you have multiple toons, why not just have a "bank" toon that has max appraise (and lore) for puttering around appraising gems, buying and selling.

For a toon that is facing the rest of the HG world, I would think there are more beneficial skills. (Max Set trap and use some godlike trap makers, perhaps?) Would max UMD allow you to get past the limitations that you go to Ixion to remove?

[chirality]

(in order)

It reduces the cost of transactions.

No.

Yes, that is the norm, for those that bother at all (some may no).

Yes, there are generally more beneficial skills. For rogues and wizards, however, it can often be the case that you have plenty of skillpoints and dropping them into Appraise can be done just for the heck of it. As for maxing set trap, that's not something a rogue in general bothers with, so no, that would not be a better investment than appraise. As for UMD, it does allow you to bypass use restrictions, which can be convenient (very nice even, in some niche cases, such as: to equip the cleric-only dispel hat; a spelljammer shifter tank using the evil-only&monk-only oc/dc unarmed torch; or to equip the evil-only&cleric/bg/pm-only crit imm ring) but is not generally a consideration outside of those.

Appraise can save quite a bit of money in the long run and I think it's worth it to max at least on a reinc where you want to buy all your rods on the given toon. After that, I'd probably say go umd over appraise if you're planning on playing in limbo (because it enables the dispel helm as an option and because there's a mob there that effectively "disables" potions vs a UMD check[properly: temporarily makes them usable by fey only, which umd can bypass the same as any other racial use restriction]) or don't care much for spending a lot of gold on forging, aug shop, or market chests. If you only have one rogue, maxing appraise probably makes the most sense because there is more or less a constant gold cost associated with playing in end game (even if it might not be significant), between the demishop, forging, aug shop, auctions, and restoring echoes. UMD is probably the "stronger" option as far as build "power" goes in-run. However, having an appraiser on your account is a "strength" as well considering wealth across all toons. Back and forth again though, it doesn't do anything other than save you money, whereas UMD does have at least theoretical direct benefits to make your toon "better" in a run (although I'd argue that a toon without rods that has UMD, is worse than a toon that has rods and no UMD, so please buy rods with appraise before you worry about wearing a fancy dispel hat or gremlins).

Often, for non-UMD-"reliers" (like this build discussion) 1 rank is taken because in practice that's all you really need (after factoring in various assumed bonuses such as from stat, song) to use scrolls, which is generally a nice perk until you have rods and smoother sources of etherealness than scrolls (pots, ring).

[Yojimbo]

4 PDK loses out on Final Stand which is a big reason I am not set on H-G hadn't really looked at Undying for it but I'm not sure it will be much or any real improvement though not bad either Ill probably pen it and see what numbers look like. I honestly forgot the extent of the value of UMD previously though Limbo was just talk before I took a break so those are new uses for it. Yeah Bullheaded got them mixed when I was typing.