Post by nwfan87 on Aug 2, 2023 10:05:13 GMT
Thank you for all the advice on the previous thread. I'm going to try making separate threads for each topic I'd like to give feedback for, in the hope this will work better than one super long thread about everything and that this will be more suitable for ProBoards. I'll also index these so they are easier to search and find.
I'm also going to have to work at the style of my threads so early ones might be out of style with what is expected, to fit in with the positive, constructive spirit of the HG community, please bear with me!
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HG really could greatly benefit from better integration of plot/journal and tags. What do I mean?
Currently, HG for me centers around tags and xp, that's where my play is spent. The biggest cultural change since the original release of NWN for games, is the need to integrate journal entries, tips, pointers, cutscenes or whatever other aid the developer can give the player, to put them on the right path, if they choose to do something.
That does not take away from the freedom to explore and discover, as HG intends. Having a journal entry with small pointers is a lifesaver as someone who might not know how to do something. Not having anything except resources which you have to find online, doesn't work with modern gamers these days, having made my own content.
You really do have to guide the player every step of the way sometimes. No case of 'just work it out', 'read this', 'watch this video'. No, this has to be integrated into the players experience in a way that it is part of the game, no matter how simple the quest really is.
Take clearing the rats in the inn basement at the town of ascension for example. It, along with every other tag or activity, is an opportunity for a quest, a journal entry and a pointer - “Ah there is a rat infestation, would you be able to take care of it” etc.
Taking a look at (WHOS') tag tracker, it is really clear to see the amount of activities available for pre 40's, but most of which I missed because there was no in game guidance, importantly, in game guidance.
Since the servers reset and all journal entries are wiped, the HG Journal system does get in the way of building a quest and a sense of progression, other than level and tag.
As old as NWN journal system is, it helps tremendously with all of the above. The journal is not a game guide, what it does, is set up possibilities for reward and exploration, “this is how many quests are available in Ascension”, “If you want to kill orcs, some orc were last seen around the caves in the north”, “If you want the ring of levitation, go here”. The Town Mage for example, might have a quest to get the four, all important rings, but then with some rumours say, “last I heard, Gublegoop was last seen in the under dark caves looking for the water ring” for example. The merchant, might have some problems getting goods between here and there, because of the Humanoid troubles in the northern mines.
The point is not to necessarily tell the player exactly how to do things (though some games like Skyrim for example, have every single step marked out so it is completely clear to the player), everything in the game has context and a relatable thread which also offers hints, not solutions, hints. HG would benefit greatly from development of plots and story further, to make it more transparent and accessible. Particularly something to think about if an EE version was made.
Without these components, HG risks becoming so huge with so many complexities, so many items to acquire or reacquire to access certain areas, that a more developed journal system, maybe one that does not reset, would help a lot.
There is the difficulty understandably of how to make quests work in a PW and to individualize journal entries per player, rather than on a global effect. i.e. if a level 47 clears the Humanoid mines to the north, my level 12 player may not get the tag, xp or journal update.
I know this from having hosted a NWNOC server many years ago and knowing that someone else who completes a quest, completes the quest. You get XP for it and whatever else is shared between a party, but once that quest is done, it is done. If you are not in the party, you lose out on everything, but, the quest, xp and tag is done. The reason HG has server resets.
HG is a PW, not a stand alone module, which means that there are different challenges that have to be overcome. I'm not entirely sure how Journal updates work on Servers, can they be reset for different party's once a party has reached the finished category? I'm not sure on a persistent world, how it would work, to have a journal update on a PC's party journals, say its done, and then script something that starts the same event/quest/conversation/script or whatever for another party on a PW, since the effect is global. I know from experience, that the highest level of a journal update is to reflect on the PC's party, but I'm not aware how that plays out with multiple PC's on a server. I imagine, the result of a global level journal updated to reflect on one PC party, would be a broken up garble of things, quests, scripts and other events that do not work for all over PC's, only compounded if there was no server reset.
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Summary of feedback:
A) Integrating Journal entries to develop more unified experience.
B) Implement individual player journal entries in a PW, without having a major impact of the global status of a given journal entry.
C) Integrating and improving the thread of the HG 'Quest', in a way that relates and works in the PW system.
I'm also going to have to work at the style of my threads so early ones might be out of style with what is expected, to fit in with the positive, constructive spirit of the HG community, please bear with me!
/////////////
HG really could greatly benefit from better integration of plot/journal and tags. What do I mean?
Currently, HG for me centers around tags and xp, that's where my play is spent. The biggest cultural change since the original release of NWN for games, is the need to integrate journal entries, tips, pointers, cutscenes or whatever other aid the developer can give the player, to put them on the right path, if they choose to do something.
That does not take away from the freedom to explore and discover, as HG intends. Having a journal entry with small pointers is a lifesaver as someone who might not know how to do something. Not having anything except resources which you have to find online, doesn't work with modern gamers these days, having made my own content.
You really do have to guide the player every step of the way sometimes. No case of 'just work it out', 'read this', 'watch this video'. No, this has to be integrated into the players experience in a way that it is part of the game, no matter how simple the quest really is.
Take clearing the rats in the inn basement at the town of ascension for example. It, along with every other tag or activity, is an opportunity for a quest, a journal entry and a pointer - “Ah there is a rat infestation, would you be able to take care of it” etc.
Taking a look at (WHOS') tag tracker, it is really clear to see the amount of activities available for pre 40's, but most of which I missed because there was no in game guidance, importantly, in game guidance.
Since the servers reset and all journal entries are wiped, the HG Journal system does get in the way of building a quest and a sense of progression, other than level and tag.
As old as NWN journal system is, it helps tremendously with all of the above. The journal is not a game guide, what it does, is set up possibilities for reward and exploration, “this is how many quests are available in Ascension”, “If you want to kill orcs, some orc were last seen around the caves in the north”, “If you want the ring of levitation, go here”. The Town Mage for example, might have a quest to get the four, all important rings, but then with some rumours say, “last I heard, Gublegoop was last seen in the under dark caves looking for the water ring” for example. The merchant, might have some problems getting goods between here and there, because of the Humanoid troubles in the northern mines.
The point is not to necessarily tell the player exactly how to do things (though some games like Skyrim for example, have every single step marked out so it is completely clear to the player), everything in the game has context and a relatable thread which also offers hints, not solutions, hints. HG would benefit greatly from development of plots and story further, to make it more transparent and accessible. Particularly something to think about if an EE version was made.
Without these components, HG risks becoming so huge with so many complexities, so many items to acquire or reacquire to access certain areas, that a more developed journal system, maybe one that does not reset, would help a lot.
There is the difficulty understandably of how to make quests work in a PW and to individualize journal entries per player, rather than on a global effect. i.e. if a level 47 clears the Humanoid mines to the north, my level 12 player may not get the tag, xp or journal update.
I know this from having hosted a NWNOC server many years ago and knowing that someone else who completes a quest, completes the quest. You get XP for it and whatever else is shared between a party, but once that quest is done, it is done. If you are not in the party, you lose out on everything, but, the quest, xp and tag is done. The reason HG has server resets.
HG is a PW, not a stand alone module, which means that there are different challenges that have to be overcome. I'm not entirely sure how Journal updates work on Servers, can they be reset for different party's once a party has reached the finished category? I'm not sure on a persistent world, how it would work, to have a journal update on a PC's party journals, say its done, and then script something that starts the same event/quest/conversation/script or whatever for another party on a PW, since the effect is global. I know from experience, that the highest level of a journal update is to reflect on the PC's party, but I'm not aware how that plays out with multiple PC's on a server. I imagine, the result of a global level journal updated to reflect on one PC party, would be a broken up garble of things, quests, scripts and other events that do not work for all over PC's, only compounded if there was no server reset.
/////////////
Summary of feedback:
A) Integrating Journal entries to develop more unified experience.
B) Implement individual player journal entries in a PW, without having a major impact of the global status of a given journal entry.
C) Integrating and improving the thread of the HG 'Quest', in a way that relates and works in the PW system.
