Alternatives to "You must rest with item before using it"

[jelricle]

In no way am I saying this is a high priority, but I am throwing it out as an idea, in case the devs find it interesting or if they find easily implementable.
Keeping hope alive that one of my ideas would be a break to keep them from burning out on the high priority stuff.    :-)


Anywho -- Instead of having a rest-with-me attribute on an item, would it be possible to keep a hash table/dictionary of one-per-day items vs item identifiers?  Then have the hashtable/dictionary reset on rest?

ie. When somebody uses a Belt of Eternal Preservation, have it add:

'Belt of Eternal Preservation': <specific id of the belt used>

to the hash table/dictionary.  If the player tries to use a Belt of Eternal Preservation while an entry exists in the hash table/dictionary for a different one, have the belt they try to use slag itself and require Zerial or morninglord priest to restore.

I think this would keep the feel and restriction of rest-with-me items while making their usage less cumbersome.
As is, swapping out all the various equipment before resting is do-able but a bit monotonous. And when I exit and restart, my toon still has all my buffs, but none of my rest-with-me items work (I suppose the second issue could be fixed by making rest-with-me items remember if you rested with them on the server, if you exit and restart)

[chirality]

resting with items in inventory and/or equipped is an anti-exploit and/or balance feature, depending on the item in question

[jelricle]

Jan 12, 2024 18:10:59 GMT chirality said:

resting with items in inventory and/or equipped is an anti-exploit and/or balance feature, depending on the item in question

Yeah. I was thinking that this proposed method might meet the anti-exploit design, but be less intrusive.

[chirality]

So instead of the item just not working, it gets slagged?

I don't see the improvement... xD

[jelricle]

Jan 12, 2024 21:44:33 GMT chirality said:

So instead of the item just not working, it gets slagged?

I don't see the improvement... xD

The improvement is not having to rearrange your items every time you rest. The slagging is just to teach people to not try to game the system. :-D

[chirality]

so you just don't want to have to rest before using items anymore?

or are you ok with resting before using things, but you want to get rid of resting while wearing things?

these are two separate issues, and you mention that swapping gear is the issue, but your example doesn't really fit with that.

it seems like you're motivated by items other than belt of eternal preservation, which is something that you have to swap on and off to use regardless, so even with your suggestion, you'd still be re-arranging gear...

what exactly are the items that you find cumbersome to equip and rest with before using again, and how does this slagging scheme address needing to rest with an item equipped before using it?

[jelricle]

It is not the resting. The once-per-rest requirement, itself, is fine an fits the atmosphere. My suggestion would keep that requirement.  
The once-per-rest requirement only becomes cumbersome when it requires constant swapping of equipment every time you want to rest.

The main issue is swapping gear. For example, I need to replace my belt with the restoration belt and my shield with the locate object torch and there was was one other (some weapon slot, I think.  I can't quite remember, since I stopped bothering a while ago) that I used to have to swap before each and every rest.  Otherwise, they will not be available when I might need them.

Swapping the gear out when you actually want to use an item is fine, I think.   I use the items much less than I rest and I am already in the process of prepping whatever I need them for so swapping them in is not additionally cumbersome (and the items are already at the forefront of my mind)

Separately, losing the "having rested with the item" if you log out of the server is also an issue, imho. 
This logging issue impacts held items like stones of rebirth and pyramid energies, in addition to items that need to be worn when resting.
If a hash table could be maintained the way buffs are maintained, then the logging issue would be resolved.
Having the existing "you've rested with me" functionality on each item maintained like buffs are maintained would also resolve the logging issue, but I do not know how centralized the "you've rested with me" flags are for the various items. The hash table would be a single centralized location.

[chirality]

so you're saying you just don't want to have to rest with gear equipped, to enable you to later swap it on at a moment's notice to benefit from the buff if you should need it?

-> you don't mind having to swap the gear on to use the buff, you just don't want to have to swap it on before resting in order to unlock it for swapping on in the future?

-> you don't want to swap gear before/after resting, and the way you think it should work is that you just swap on an item and use the buff.

-> you are ok with the item not working unless you have it in your inventory when you rest, but you want to remove the requirement to rest with items equipped in order for them to work.

is this correct?

[jelricle]

Um . . . I think so?

I think you need to include:

-> You don't mind only being able to use one instance of an item between rests. ie. after a rest, once you use a particular instance of a onec-per-rest item, that becomes the only instance of that type of item you can use until your next rest.

-> If you have to log out for a while because of work or family or whatever, you don't want to have to re-rest just to reactivate once-per-rest items.

And I would edit your second point to be:

-> you don't want to swap gear before/after resting, and the way you think it should work is that you just swap on an item and use the buff which would then lock that item as the only instance of the item type you can use until your next rest


(BTW, I am not in any way saying this is game killing nor am I deeply complaining. I am just brain-storming and throwing out an idea for the drafting table that I think would add to user experience, and might be doable via a hash table/dictionary that tracks instances of once-per-rest items)

[chirality]

Jan 13, 2024 19:02:56 GMT jelricle said:

Um . . . I think so?

I think you need to include:

-> You don't mind only being able to use one instance of an item between rests. ie. after a rest, once you use a particular instance of a onec-per-rest item, that becomes the only instance of that type of item you can use until your next rest.

Which item are you referring to?

I don't see the equivalency between an item that must be worn while resting to use it, and your concept of a "particular instance" of an item.

It seems like you want to bypass the "rest-with-equipped" mechanic entirely and replace it with "only use one instance of a particular item per rest." If I understand correctly, your thought process here is that preventing the player from using "copies" of the same item will replace the need for the player to rest with the item equipped. Is that correct?

Jan 13, 2024 19:02:56 GMT jelricle said:

-> If you have to log out for a while because of work or family or whatever, you don't want to have to re-rest just to reactivate once-per-rest items.

This is separate from needing to rest with "gear" before using it or resting with gear equipped before using it. This is how things other than equippable items work, such as epic spell tokens. You also don't get back uses of limited/day buffs that you used and logged out while the buff was still active. I'm sure we can all agree that this is frustrating, but have you considered why things work this way? Your suggestion for slagging items to prevent abuse, rather than forcing player to rest with them equipped to prevent abuse, doesn't account for the fact that logging out costs you other things as well, which you also must reset after relogging to "get back."

Jan 13, 2024 19:02:56 GMT jelricle said:

And I would edit your second point to be:

-> you don't want to swap gear before/after resting, and the way you think it should work is that you just swap on an item and use the buff which would then lock that item as the only instance of the item type you can use until your next rest

If I understand correctly, you're suggesting that you shouldn't have to rest to use the belt of epic preservation at all, but you can only use one per rest.

Jan 13, 2024 19:02:56 GMT jelricle said:

(BTW, I am not in any way saying this is game killing nor am I deeply complaining. I am just brain-storming and throwing out an idea for the drafting table that I think would add to user experience, and might be doable via a hash table/dictionary that tracks instances of once-per-rest items)

I don't mean to make you defensive. I'm just not really clear on which specific "problem" you're trying to "solve" because it seems like there are a few different complaints:

1) I don't want to have to rest with gear equipped to use gear's special power
2) I don't want to have to rest after I log back in
3) I don't want to have to rest before using gear's special power

Having to rest before using special abilities and/or re-rest after relogging is still required for pretty much everything else other than buffs from special gear that was designed to make you have to rest before using it/rest with it equipped, as an additional restriction due to the buff/item being relatively powerful and/or abusable.

The specific item you've mentioned is belt of eternal preservation. I think inventory management can be a hassle in this game when you want to take advantage of all possible buff gear, which is also the case in many other games. It's up to the player to decide what level of inventory management is worth their time and effort.

I think that the "cost" of "having to rest with it equipped" is kind of a reasonable RPG-style item mechanic to "let you use it." There was quite some pushback when this restriction was added to brazier, which reminds me that this suggestion kind of returns me to this thread of yours from last year anyway.

Part of D&D and d20 is that things are limited to uses per day, and when it comes to equipment, part of most RPGs is that you have to actually equip some items to activate a special power on it. You don't have to rest with a lot of gear that has buffs, and the uses/day are preserved across relogs or resets/server hops. The list of gear with this restriction is relatively short, and the logic for something like BeP is that if you're willing to fiddle with inventory management, you get the benefit of a "free" crit imm buff 1/day. It sounds like you kind of just want the buff to be just attached to your character directly as long as you're carrying the item around, and you can use it once per day by equipping it and unequipping it. In that case, why bother even having it tied to the item in the first place? If resting with it equipped is a hassle, isn't equipping it for 3 secs and then unequipping it an even bigger hassle?

[jelricle]

Jan 14, 2024 1:02:38 GMT chirality said:

Which item are you referring to

Well, I was referring to every item that has to have been worn or held during your last rest. I was referring to these as once-per-rest items.
eg.

• The Belt of Eternal Preservation. You need to be wearing this item on your last rest for it to work. My idea is that if you use a particular Belt of Eternal Preservation, then you will not be able to use any other Belt of Eternal Preservation (ie any other instance of the Belt of Eternal Preservation item) until your next rest.
• Brazier of Painful Truth. You need to be wearing this item on your last rest for it to work. My idea is that if you use a particular Brazier of Painful Truth, then you will not be able to use any other Brazier of Painful Truth (ie any other instance of the Brazier of Painful Truth item) until your next rest.

Yes. I think you are completely correct. I want to bypass the "rest-with-equipped" mechanic entirely, but I still want prevent the exploit that I think the mechanic is meant to prevent. I think the "rest-with-equipped" mechanic was meant to prevent a player from using multiple copies of the same type of item. is the "rest-with-equipped" mechanic meant to prevent some other exploit?

Jan 14, 2024 1:02:38 GMT chirality said:

[Having to rest again after logging out] is separate from needing to rest with "gear" before using it or resting with gear equipped before using it.

I am surprised it is separate. When I log back into a server after logging out, and try to use my "Belt of Eternal Preservation", "Brazier of Painful Truth" or "Pyramid Energy", I get the complaint that I have to rest before using that item, even though I had rested with them before logging out. (I don't think stones of rebirth work anymore, either, but they are not exactly "useable" so I do not know if they would fit with the hash table/dictionary)

Jan 14, 2024 1:02:38 GMT chirality said:

If I understand correctly, you're suggesting that you shouldn't have to rest to use the belt of epic preservation at all, but you can only use one per rest.

Yes. Exactly. I felt that a "one-instance-of-item-type-per-rest" mechanic would prevent the same exploit that the "rest-while-wearing" mechanic was meant to prevent, while also being less cumbersome. Did I overlook some other exploit? Is there some exploit that would not be prevented by a "one-instance-of-item-type-per-rest" mechanic?

Jan 14, 2024 1:02:38 GMT chirality said:

If resting with it equipped is a hassle, isn't equipping it for 3 secs and then unequipping it an even bigger hassle?

I've found that equipping it for 3 secs when you want to use it is no a hassle.

• When you want to use the greater restoration ability of the BoP or the locate object or find traps ability of the BoPT, you are in the context of needing to use it; you are focused on it; it is part of your present engagement.
• When you are resting, though, you are usually involved in something that has nothing to do with needing to cast Greater restoration or Locate Object or Find Traps
  • You could be trying to get spells back; you are trying to heal; or you are simply trying to reset everything; etc.
  • Also, when running with a party, I always am rushed while resting so that I hold up the other folk as little as possible with my newb-ish fumblings; remembering what gear to swap in and out is yet one more thing to juggle.

Jan 14, 2024 1:02:38 GMT chirality said:

I don't mean to make you defensive.

:-D Don't worry! My only insecurity is that I am annoying you with the thoughts and ideas that come into my head! I posted that disclaimer to underscore that these are just ideas and suggestions.
HG is an awesome mod and the community is engaging. We each have our own play styles. I am throwing out ideas that I think would add to player experience but am also looking for feedback of things I don't know (eg. Are there exploits I hadn't considered? Is there a side-effect or play style wherein this idea would be troublesome, rather than helpful? Does the idea break atmosphere, feel or immersion in some way?)

[hackenslay]

I think there's another consideration you're missing. Your system, if implemented, removes the forced choice that was part of the power balance, i.e. wearing the Belt of Eternal Preservation during rest means you can't wear a different belt with a once per day special ability...

[jelricle]

Jan 14, 2024 18:58:58 GMT hackenslay said:

I think there's another consideration you're missing. Your system, if implemented, removes the forced choice that was part of the power balance, i.e. wearing the Belt of Eternal Preservation during rest means you can't wear a different belt with a once per day special ability...

True; nice catch . . . Are there other once-a-day belts? (Just curious)

Hmmm . . . Okay . . . Small adjustment to algorithm: for wearables, the key of the hash table/dictionary could be the body slot, instead of the item type. (Minor if clause for rings . . . Are there any once-a-day rings?)

[chirality]

It sounds like what you really want is for the rest-while-equipped requirement to be removed from these two specific items. This is a lot of mental gymnastics.

Brazier has already been denied to have the restriction removed, so the motivation for this brainstorm seems like essentially an attempt to figure out a way around asking for that to be changed, by sliding the removal of the restriction in, without saying so explicitly.

The other item you've mentioned grants rare/precious crit imm, which presents as a rather unique and powerful buff. As a belt, it's a very low-maintenance swapper piece due to not being on armor and being very small. As a belt, however, it does create an issue for casters who use slot belts.

On that note, have you also considered that one of the reasons resting with items equipped is a thing, could be to discourage casters from abusing the item?

[jelricle]

It is more the overall mechanic. These are the two items I still bother putting the effort into, along with the pyramid energy (and rebirth stone, I suppose) which fails if I log out of the server. I know there was another item, but I cannot recall it now.

Sure, you guys like the crit immunity, I like the greater restore and apparently spell casters can abuse it if there were no limitation. I agree that there should be a once a day limitation. I just thought that my idea enforces the same limitation.

Did I miss you describing some limitation in one of your posts that my mechanic would not cover? Is there something about “casters abusing” these rest-with-me items that you vets are all aware of, but that I cannot intuit?