Idea for Wizard Perk

[Paradoom]

Well we all know and luv our sorcs. If you go pure you even get the extra metamagic 1 for free and alot of spell slots.

Wizards hower do not even have any bonus spellslots and the exorbitant amount of skillpoints is only good when splashing.

So I got the following idea for wizards in general:

Through your extreme amount of time studing the weave you gained much deeper insights on magic in general. Through that you are able to strenghten your spells:

requirements:
- does not belong to a quasi class
- demanding to be pure wizard (not a fan of that idea, but could be the prize to pay vs. the standard loot wiz)

perks:
- for every 15 points of ability modifier you gain +1 to your spellpenetration checks (net +2 when reaching 70 intelligence)
- for every 15 points of ability modifier you gain +1 to your spells dc (net +2 when reaching 70 intelligence)
- if using a spell against a target that it is specifically weak to, the before mentioned boni get doubled.

Meaning this would give wizards a bit of an edge over a sorc when it comes to spell effectiveness and can make actual use of it´s versatility.

[chirality]

not saying the perk itself isn't a good idea, but the formula seems kind of meaningless. this looks basically like +2 SP/DC by L60 for a bur sub for effectively all intents and purposes, so we should probably just go with that. i would recommend something like +1 @ L50 and +2 @ L60, irrespective of ability modifier. this would be more legit as a bonus across the whole build/levelup power spectrum, like autochannel which helps even open sub LL sorcs.

i think such a buff would be interesting and probably balanced. i think a more fine-tuned approach to wizard buffs, like school-specific special things, seems cool and fancy on paper but in practice something like "just give wizards a spell power boost" probably makes a lot more sense and is easier to implement. i'm not sure +2 SP/DC for pure wizard would even be overpowered in the zoomed-out view. playing a wizard would still suck and be bad. maybe give splash wizard +1 spell power and pure wizard +2?

[boroie]

Wizards are versatile, sorcs are focused. Giving wizards a focus bonus doesn't feel right. Wizards can already get the spell dc bonus from specialisation. The spell pen bonus is fair though, essentially spell pen specialisation. Additional power should come with specialisation and a reduction of power in the non specialised areas - eg sorc has less schools, pm and bfm/dsm have reduced caster levels. Probably something to do with slots or fixing sb load would be appropriate along side the spell pen sweetener.

[Paradoom]

Specialisation is way to expensive as of now / grants too little benefits. On top the all so praised versatility goes down the drain with it and leaves you still weaker than a sorc in the end.

[chirality]

wizard versatility is inherently a trap concept for the D&D implementation of the class. this is not merely true in most of hg/where it matters, but also in PnP as well, which is largely a running joke that goes back a very long time. the DM has to very creatively cater to the wizard as a player in order to allow the wizard as a character to truly shine in an anchoring offensive role. in general, for divine casters, this isn't a huge problem, as clerics have spontaneous casting which enables them to (largely) be useful regardless of what they prepare, and like druids, their spellcasting roles in PnP (and in HG) tend to be much more focused, with a relatively small pool of offensive/utility/CC spells to be cast in any general scenario.

for example, a druid is pretty much going to know at spell prep time whether they will be in an outdoor area or indoors, in terms of what (PnP) spells might apply, and unlike in HG, their offensive arsenal is generally very light and support-oriented, just like the classic conception/use of cleric/druid in HG/nwn as well. a cleric or druid pretty much has to go through a portal to an unknown destination to be so thrown out of their expectations that their prepared spells are useless, and again, it's basically a moot point for several reasons (including the fact that basically any version of D&D other than HG, you don't have dozens upon dozens of bonus spell slots).

for wizards, the historic PnP precedent is that certain schools are versatile enough, with spells versatile enough, that the wizard can often be useful for various situations offensively. for example, illusion, enchantment, and conjuration cover a lot of ground without needing to know in great detail what "mobs" the "adventure" will have. illusion/enchantment's versatility comes at the significant cost of being absolutely useless against some common enemy types, but much like a druid with a bunch of entangles that suddenly finds themselves in an indoor plantless environment, an illusionist or enchanter has to almost go through a random portal to be completely surprised by undead or constructs, when they prepped mainly illusions/enchantments that don't work in the adventure/encounter.

in theory it happens but it's pretty much just a dick move by the DM to "punish" the player and "character" and party by doing something like this (unless it is truly punishment for ignoring clues or something like that). conjurers, on the other hand, might be surprised by a situation where their bread-and-butter summon monster spells are either useless or not helpful, but again, having the conjuration-focused wizard deal with a situation where summon spells are useless is hopefully going to be at best an "interesting encounter" where banishment/dimensional anchors are in play, an abjuration-focused minion or boss, or a non-combat diplomatic zone where other characters will shine because the wizard for once can't just summon monsters to solve the problem which is what usually happens when there's nothing barring them from doing so. another scenario could be where the possible monsters summoned can't survive or "don't work" offensively but again this is basically a dick move by the dm unless the goal is to let other characters shine, or punish the party for not picking up the clues and telling the conjurer not to do their normal spell prep.

anyway...

wizard spell prep has always been a thing that players and DMs have to carefully deal with, and in PnP, as the entire game is an exercise in a joint imaginative collaboration, the aspects of hg-like powergaming are only present if the party/dm are after that intentionally, in which case the wizard probably isn't going to get stuck in situations where their prepped spells are useless. nonetheless, it's just a built-in "feature" of the class that they shine in utility role, not artillery; this is basically by design and is rooted in the differentiation between sorc and wiz, and largely enumerated in official material (can hunt for sources if pressed).

sorc may know fireball or lightning bolt or both and hopefully the dm gives the sorc an excuse to use one or the other or both in a battle, but wizard can only cast what they have prepped so if they have 3 fireballs and 3 lightning bolts, they have 3 fireballs sitting memorized that are useless vs the fire-immune enemy. this is how it is in HG and how it's always been in PnP. wizard versatility shines when it comes to knowing in advance what to prepare for the weird scenario or application that the sorcerer can't afford to learn something as a spell known, because it's such a niche scenario or mob that it'd be a really bad choice. wizard shines in saving the party's ass because the sorcerer doesn't know The Spell Needed, but the wizard does have it in their Supplemental Spellbook No. 2, so even though the wizard hasn't prepped that spell in 5 years, now that they needed it, they're good to go after a nap.

in a lesser extent, the wizard can "excel" as a "versatile" role regardless of "special situations" but again this is largely in utility or crowd-control applications. the wizard might prep 1-2 or 3 of some very wide-ranging spells and maybe the thing might just do the trick in encounter #4 of the run, but it's extremely unlikely that the wizard prepping 4 fingers of death is going to be able to really do a lot offensively with that death magic in pnp, but if they have nec feats maybe they can hope to take out either 1 lieutenant or 3-4 minions. in hg this is basically the druid prepping a few fods in the offchance of a camizu and maybe the arcane/cleric are doing other stuff. but the wizard as a class by design isn't going to find much success as the arcane artillery role in pnp, outside of, again, illusion/enchantment in a mindless-creature-light adventure/campaign/environment, or a conjurer in an adventure/campaign/environment where summoning monsters is reliable and flexible in combat.

for something like elemental damage spells, or offensive transmutations, this is really, really risky, and the wizard with limited #s of each specific cast spell is not an offensive powerhouse because fireballs don't work on everything and turning everything into a statue only works as long as you don't need any loot from the mob. again, this is just part of the class, and part of school balance as well, not just sorc vs wiz balance. the wizard enchanter or illusionist is really, really powerful in many scenarios because multiple of the same/similar spell can be used for many purposes, but if they are transitioning from the "city investigation" phase of the adventure to the "explore the crypt" phase of the adventure, they will probably drop most of their charms/dominates/phantasms for some more bread-and-butter utility or offense that will either work vs undead or help CC etc.

on the other hand, the ench or illus sorcerer with a spells known list of mainly ench and illus is an absolute machine vs most living creatures because they can essentially "spam" those spells until they work, but when they are going to the catacombs, the sorc is hoping to maybe pull out a spontaneous illusion or charm if there's something that's vulnerable but is expecting to largely be in a support/utility role, while the wizard who normally preps support/utility now gets to dust off their "fire spells" book and shine by prepping mainly damage spells that are probably going to work pretty reliably on undead. this is the counterplay in pnp where the wizard's "versatility" shines, but the difference between HG and PnP twists adventuring in several ways.


//skip to here if tl;dr

in hg, the wizard's versatility is only a boon if they can leverage offensive versatility in combat, because there is no diplomacy or investigating or enchanting gear. wizard competes with sorc in the role of arcane artillery. wizard can only take advantage of their "versatility" in an idealized situation where the spawns are 100% set and they are very likely to have their spells succeed. a run like desert/db, where there's ~10 different mobs and each one weak to a specific element, with 1-2 others "working" and 1-2 others "not working", is about the limit of a wizard's offensive versatility (or a map like monastery, where 90% of the mobs are the same creature that take the same best ele types). once you introduce variated spawns, and randoms, wizard "versatility" goes out the window as a "feature," even in a vacuum, let alone in comparison to sorc.

the only real solution is to make wizards have more powerful spells with a higher success rate, so each precious slot is more likely to land, and/or more slots, to enable more copies of the same spell and more copies of different spells to be memorized. the way the mod is balanced spellwise/buildwise, sorc isn't limited enough by spell known and feat choice for their "lack" of "versatility" to matter. there is a lot more to dig into about sorc vs wiz versatility, such as reincarnation and being able to build specific sorcs for specific schools for specific runs, but i just want to really harp on the fact that wizard versatility is not in practice a meaningful benefit in the mod, neither in terms of building in general, nor playing a run.

even a pariah, which gets less versatility than a sorc, can be effective in the entire mod, a fact which requires about 20 seconds of thinking to realize that wizard versatility is not really a meaningful benefit. i would argue that the existence and "success" of PM as a class in HG really demonstrates that +SP/DC is the key to wizard spellcasting being desirable. a wizard that only does 2 schools is contrary to the intuitive "strength" of "wizard" as "versatility," but in practice, wizard only casting 6 spells but doing them really, really, really well, is the only way that they are competitive vs sorc. there is no amount of new mobs or new spells or special features that will offset this. polymathy is really powerful and even x2 karsus or rotating "versatile floating paragon spell" from polymathy isn't strong enough. it speaks volumes that wizard's greatest strength was (briefly) in abusing de-specialization for a free powerful spell. that's the kind of versatility that gives wizards a power boost. if more free panic button/bossfight deletion buttons aren't in the cards, or if more spell slots isn't in the cards, it needs to be +SP/DC so the spells that they do have are going to land better than a sorc's.

[jelricle]

Apr 13, 2024 23:12:40 GMT chirality said:

. . .


//skip to here if tl;dr

. . .

:-D

[boroie]

Apr 13, 2024 23:12:40 GMT chirality said:

wizard.

So many words....

The other day we took a wizard to abyss. 'Oh what spells do I need? Let me go learn them.'
A lot better than a sorc needing to go level up to learn that 1 spell needed (eg pwk)
Versatility is important and is it's own mechanical benefit.

[chirality]

[Paradoom]

Versatility of a wizard is it´s ability to adabt to each run with a good to optimal spell setup and is not about that you need only oh so many different spells for one specific run.

Apr 13, 2024 23:12:40 GMT chirality said:

the only real solution is to make wizards have more powerful spells with a higher success rate

Pretty much what I suggested, no?

[hackenslay]

I have to admit, I never understood the free spell slots and channeling for sorcs. They're already the top-tier arcane caster... adding to their power without a corresponding power increase for the hardest to play arcane seemed counter-intuitive and ... well... mean-spirited. Did sorcs really need free slots and DC to make them equal to wizards? Did people play wizards before the free slots for sorcs? before free channeling for pure? I'm actually curious why these perks were added to sorcs. Did they seem underpowered before?

At this point I don't think you could buff wizard enough to get people to play them. Would YOU play a wizard with all of the hassles for free +3 DC? +4? 5? Sorcs even get free slots to make channeling less painful, so they could, for instance, channel 3 every non-buff spell and get the +3DC while a wiz just couldn't.

[chirality]

Apr 14, 2024 14:22:08 GMT Paradoom said:

Versatility of a wizard is it´s ability to adabt to each run with a good to optimal spell setup and is not about that you need only oh so many different spells for one specific run.

Apr 13, 2024 23:12:40 GMT chirality said:

the only real solution is to make wizards have more powerful spells with a higher success rate

Pretty much what I suggested, no?

yep

Apr 13, 2024 18:49:11 GMT chirality said:

i think such a buff would be interesting and probably balanced.

[drunkenboastor]

Specialization should be standard without penalty. As it currently stands, the only wizards that can specialize are ones that are not control class wizards. 


This next is nerf sorcerer stuff.

In the long long ago, when the Hells were new and the level cap was 60, most casters were paladin splash. Changes were made through time to make it less appealing to do this, Int arty forced evil on login for Wizards and PMs, Heart Bane spell forced all clerics to be evil, caster level ego for druids (remember when NB had a save?), and free channel 1 for sorcerers. The way the game is today, you will almost never see any caster besides a bard with a paladin splash. If the evil component of Heart Bane was removed, I doubt that there would be a stampede of players reincarnating clerics to include a paladin splash. 

Free Channel 1. This should be changed to cheaper channel 2 and 3. I would bet the vast majority of sorcerer players do not know, have not known, and will not know the command to change the channel. 

Bonus Spell Slots. Currently sorcerer gets 1 bonus spell for each 2 slots on gear, with quasi classes get 1 per 3. I think this should be reversed to sorcerer gets 1 per 3 and quasi classes get 1 per 2. From my personal playtesting experience with Pariah, BFM tank, and Bane Knight I found these all to be spell slot starved. It is difficult to do much offensive casting with a BFM tank or Bane Knight, even with a few spell slot items and multiple UR spell slot augments, a balance of tank gear has to be maintained. For Pariah, I wanted to play one in plate and shield using displacement for conceal, anyone who suggests this has not played one. Caster robe and caster shield and EV is the best path and really the essential way, even then there is a need to gear with spell slots as prime focus and all open augment slots get spell slot augments. If quasi classes got 1 per 2, maybe players might play BFMs and DSMs again. Right now it is a "tough" choice between less selection of and fewer spells or universal usefulness with the many more spells that a sorcerer gets.

[Yojimbo]

Personally I have thought that a carrot for Wizards should be more to do with specialization such as a permitting spells from barred schools but at reduced CL or pure wizards who specialize can unbar 1 school at the spell pedestal or somewhere in between.

My ideas are

Opt #1: CL for Barred Schools = 2/3 CL(maybe 3/4)
Opt #2: @l41 Specialist Wizard w/ 40 Levels of Wizard Pre-LL may unbar 1 of their selected schools
Opt #3: @l41 Specialist Wizards w/ 30 Levels of Wizard Pre-LL may unbar 1 of their selected schools and cast a 3/4 CL

[yune]

The big problem with wizards is picking how many of each spell to prepare. Clerics and druids don't have this problem much because there are only 1 or 2 spells of each level to prepare. But wizards? How many dbf vs how many tclap, how many to empower, how many weird vs pwk vs empowered dbf/tclap, etc. Wizards can function with only instakill spells and play like cleric/druid with only a couple different spells per level, but elemental damage spells are too much. Ran out of DBF but still have a bunch of TClap left and staring down a tomb mote? You're in trouble.

Think of lolth-touched CC wizard theurges. 30% lore boost to all damage spells, like a BFM/DSM but can cast anything out of wizard AND cleric books. Nobody plays them because wizards don't function with elemental damage spells.

Plus, it's painful to fiddle with your spellbook before every run. Sorc just rests and ready to go.

[Yojimbo]

I agree that the Wizard is suffers as while they have an overall versatility, including more feats for more foci, they lack in spontaneous versatility and possibly the endurance due to how many useful spells can you memorize. In many ways this makes me think the spell slot bonus of Sorc really belongs more to Wizards.

I like those that Specialization is basically a unique feature of Wizard and there are 2 bonuses that Wizards do get that are unique to them one of which ties to specialization the other just to the class.

#1 Specialized Wizards can take PSK w/o only PSF, the exact wording isn't clear if you need just ESF & the Epic spell or need LSF & the Epic Spell
#2 Polymathy any non-barred Paragon spell w/o any focus or epics in the school either

Which maybe another option is Pure Wizards get a free specialization w/o needing to bar any school.