Suggestions for Legendary Balancing

[FunkySwerve]

In the update coming later today, we began the next major step forward for the server - integrating Legendary Levels into class abilities. This update, they will begin to affect shifter abilities, in terms of both DCs and damage. I also plan to make spell casterlevels increase for Legendary levels, which should put damage spells back on the map, to an extent. Other than that, feel free to post here any abilities that you think should be affected by Legendary Levels. Try to be as specific as you can, with regards to how, how much, and why the ability should change. This is NOT the place to suggest new abilities or changes to existing abilities other than for LL; use the Class Balancing thread for those, please.
Thanks,
Funky

[hiryuu]

DD's Defensive Weave should continue to increase in damage (like the pre-LL pace), as the current amount does minimal damage to post-Epic creatures. Same for AA's Imbue Arrow and Hail of Arrows. A new quiver with an LL requirement would be nice, too.

Improving Cleric/Paladin's Turn Undead, at least destroying weak undead, would reflect their growing power when dealing with weaker areas.

[FunkySwerve]

hiryuu said:

Improving Cleric/Paladin's Turn Undead, at least destroying weak undead, would reflect their growing power when dealing with weaker areas.

This is something I've been putting off, since my predecessors did some really screwy things to a lot of the creatures a cleric could normally turn. What I really need to start fixing turning (which is useless in many undead areas IMO) is a list of creatures that should be effected by one sort of turning or another, preferably on an area-by area basis, and not neglecting turning variants like elementals, outsiders, and constructs. The important ones to get on the list are creatures that are a) too hard or b) too easy to turn at a level-appropriate cleric level. Volunteers?
Funky

[Delfestra Ruinvorn]

For casters:

I'd like to see LLs incorporated into spell level as well as damage. For example, a level 60 Premonition should be harder to dispel than a level 40 premontion. This change would help balance dispels from monsters - their caster level likely increases over 40, and ours should rise to reflect our true level. Plus it helps us not get simply erased at high levels. In my view, casters should rely more on their own buffs than armor and shields, or robes and dex/wis, to stay alive.

If damage for offensives is being uncapped, could the other non-offensive spell types be similarly extended to level 60?

Effects like the Damage Absorbtion/Reduction/Resistance for Premonition, Stoneskin, Greater Stoneskin, and the spell immunity/evasion component for Ethereal Visage, and the extended spell immunity for Globe of Invulnerability...could have their level-based improvements extended for level 60 play. Reason for this is to keep pace with rising monster difficulty and damage output, and univeral kickback.

I'd suggest start with the progession listed in the altered spell book and extending through level 60 for spells like:
Greater Spellmantle
Premonition
Ethereal Visage (Though 100% concealment at 60 may be a bit much, it' be a bonus for *pure* casters)
Greater Stoneskin
Lesser Spell Mantle
Bestow Curse
Stoneskin
Ray of Enfeeblement

Some others that do not have specific level graduated changes, but do change:
Energy Buffer
Protection from Elements
I'd suggest raising the damage reduction number, and the number of points absorbed, by 1/3rd over the level 40 number, to take into account raiseing from 40-60.

Mage Armor - raise to +3 of each type for level 41+

Int/con/str/wis/dex/cha buffs - whatever the name, make them 3d4+3 at 41+? At that level, everyone needs the +12 if they don't have it, and everyone just casts empower if they don't. It'd keep pace with the book listed progression, and free up more level 4 spells, which items usually don't increase.

Flame Weapon: Up damage to 30+1d4 at level 60? Seems your formula is 1/2 level +1d4.

Gust of Wind - Increase the DC by 5 for every 5 levels over 20? Or every 10? Its current use is only to blow away abyss-flame and glabrezu grease. It'd be actually useful at higher levels then.

Enervation - Increase the level drain to 4d4 at level 41+. Maybe then someone may use it. I certainly never have. Its one of those spells that is out there because it works better against players, so monsters have it.

Firebrand/Ball Lightning = Uncap the damage, and allow perhaps 40 missles at level 40? 60 at 60 is a bit absurd. Also, may be easier to script that way.

Undeath to Death - uncap hd to 60d4 at 60, and raise the DC - willsaves make it kinda useless against undead. Plus, many undead are not actually undead (like in Rhazid's), and your above post to Hiryuu mentions that - issues are related.

Flesh to Stone: I've never seen anyone use it. Ever. I'd argue to raise the DC by 5 at 40, and maybe 5 more at 50. Its a level 6 spell, and most things have saves too high for that to realistically work without a kick, and other things are flat out immune to level 6 and below...so you wouldn't see people petrifying Dachy.

Cloud type spells - I presume you're uncapping to 60 that damage also. Since monster damage reduction for small damage amounts over time is higher at high levels, would you also reduce the per caster level divider to allow higher damage, so that the big monsters take some damage over time?

Energy Drain - 5d4 at 50 and 6d4 at 60? Keep pace with previous increases? (Maybe then someone will use it)

Blackstaff / Black Blade of Disaster - +hit/+enhancement be increased to the point that they'd be useful in combat...

Circle of Death - uncap HD effected to max out at lvl 60 instead of 30.

Also, the uncapped damage on the personal damage shields - death armor, fire shield, mestil's acid sheath...can their damage be uncapped also take level 60 into account? This is because of increased monster HPs in LLs, and also increased damage absorbtions of monsters at higher levels aswell.

For all the other offensive damage dealing spells in the book, I'd suggest uncapping them to level 60 in the exact same way that they're currently uncapped for level 40. The top level 3 spell levels cap at 60, the middle 3 spell levels cap at 50, and the first three levels cap at 40. That'd also preserve an increasing power level between a fireball and a DBfireball. Higher does more. Plus, no matter how you slice it or improve it...a level 3 spell is still a level 3 spell - and things that allow you or monsters to be spell immune to level X and under would prevent people from magic missling dachy to death, or something.

And damage spells that start gaining strength at 21+, give them 1/3rd more damage from 41+ - to keep pace with the original balancing, and yet still keep them smaller since they're on a different scale.

Two spells not listed as modified - put here to balance for LL, not just to say they may need alteration:

SPELL MANTLE - level 7. Lesser and greater spell mantle have altered absorbtion progressions, but not spell mantle. Please alter it in the same way with a standard absorbtion bonus by levels so that casters have a choice to use 7th or 9th depending on what they fight in higher areas. This will also help sorcerers who likely won't have both.

Power Word Kill: No one uses it. Most things have more than 120 hps. Book doesn't have its HP/HD effectiveness increased. Please increase it for balance purposes in a way similar to Power Word Stun, so it can be useful past 20.

Summons at post immortal areas I have found to be rather unuseable - unless of course you have balor or visage of doom.

To reflect level 60 play, could a second upgrade of the super-epic dragon be created to find in game? More tank-type, less spell tossing? Able to hit and take damage to a useful extent?

Or, for the summon monster 1-9, perhaps increase the IX to carry up to a level 40, or even 45 monster to mindlessly tank for their master's benefit? It'd take adding one or two new summons though to follow the progression listed in the book.

I would also argue in favor of increasing the LL-Spell penetration from +2 to +4 or more. A 48 spell penetration isn't really that much better than a 46, and it seems from my fight experience that the monster SR grows faster than my ability to pierce their saves.

Since monster saves also grow faster than spellcaster DC, I'd say LL-Focuses could stand to be +4 instead of +2 as well. Or perhaps a flat-DC increase for caster level based on LLs, or spell levels, or something. Like +1 to everything for being 50 and +2 for being 60...something to get the DCs up a bit, but not overpoweringly so.

I'd also argue for uncapping the super-epic spell damage to take level 60 into account as well - so Starfire continues to be ahead of Meteor Swarm in damage output. Which is how it should be.

And unless scripting prohibits it, Missle Barrage could stand to be unresistable. It is currently the only epic spell that can be resisted using SR.

Since epic spells do not seem to be level oriented (talking bioware epics), perhaps greater ruin, hellball, epic warding...need to be reevaluated based on a level 60 world. But I don't know how to suggest past that, since I don't know how to script.

[calad]

Rogues, dare I say, and sneak attack. Since at 40 without any feats sneak attack caps at 20d6. It would be nice to add another 10d6 for the other 20 lvls. Why do rogues need this? Combat is really a rogues only weakness.

[FunkySwerve]

@delf - I don't have time at the moment for a detailed reply to your post. You need to read my post again however., the part where I say:
"This update, they will begin to affect shifter abilities, in terms of both DCs and damage. I also plan to make spell casterlevels increase for Legendary levels, which should put damage spells back on the map, to an extent. Other than that, feel free to post here any abilities that you think should be affected by Legendary Levels."

Im not looking for input on how to scale spells in this thread, or anywhere for that matter. Reason being, many or most player suggestions would be a disaster. 100% conceal on EV? Riiiiight. Expect a steady progression from where most spells are. Other than ability scaling, the purpose of this thread, what would be most helpful to me, if you want to suggest spell changes, is to discuss spells in the other balancing thread, particularly ones you find useless and those we haven't yet modified. The only spell suggestions that belong here are those where a spell changes entirely in LL, like Wall of Fire switches to Stone at 21. You may have had some in your post, but I didn't have time to check, since I'm finishing an update. I just wanted to stem the tide of spell suggestions here before it got out of hand - HOW spells will scale is something we have thoroughly under control.
Thanks,
Funky

[FunkySwerve]

calad said:

Rogues, dare I say, and sneak attack. Since at 40 without any feats sneak attack caps at 20d6. It would be nice to add another 10d6 for the other 20 lvls. Why do rogues need this? Combat is really a rogues only weakness.

Can't add sneak to characters except via feats. Max out yer feats! I did add a rogue-only item that adds sneak this update, however...
Funky

[Delfestra Ruinvorn]

funkyswerve said:

@delf - I don't have time at the moment for a detailed reply to your post. You need to read my post again however., the part where I say:
"This update, they will begin to affect shifter abilities, in terms of both DCs and damage. I also plan to make spell casterlevels increase for Legendary levels, which should put damage spells back on the map, to an extent. Other than that, feel free to post here any abilities that you think should be affected by Legendary Levels."

...sorrysorry...I took that to mean you were talking about increasing the caster levels only for damage spells, which is why I suggested bundling in the non-damage spell increases. I feel like a total dork.

My punishment must be that my head explodes in shame.

And you're right, you guys DO have balance thoroughly under control. Much better than other places. 100% conceal is total crack...assuming I understand how that works correctly, of course. And player ideas, being limited to that player's perspective, probably do break something else somewhere else more often than not.

The only things in what I wrote that fall into the "specifically for LL" category, like wall of fire becoming wall of stone, would be dropping the SR-check on Missle Barrage. 'Cause its the only epic that *has* an SR check, and monsters in LLs can take it without instantly croaking...and everything boss-wise you'd use it on has magic reduction anyway.

[FunkySwerve]

...sorrysorry...I took that to mean you were talking about increasing the caster levels only for damage spells, which is why I suggested bundling in the non-damage spell increases. I feel like a total dork.

I didn't mean to sound quite so harsh. As the server grows, tho, we get more feedback, so I am trying to channel it into an organized form so I can find the suggestions when it comes time to implemented them. Thats also why I barked at zerogravity - wading through posts that size makes it that much harder to find what Im looking for. In short, PLEASE let us know what you think, just in a way that'll be useful when the time comes.
Funky

[fusa]

one spell that could be buffed for ll's is tensers transformation...maybe instead of changing into a useless low level tank, adding ac and hp to the sorc/wiz

[sabregirl]

Well, well I was very happy to check out the new legendary abilities for shifters this evening. Curse song for Harpies is a very awesome addition and seems pretty useful, very cool. The improved mindflayer attack was also quite nice and seems useful now. Death Slaad attack power increased nicely but not ridiculously. I'd say the Medusa's gaze is still underpowered and I couldn't really tell much difference since everything since anything remotely resembling Const seems to save against it easily (my DC was 43 at lvl 48) except for the same relatively wimpy undeads I could get before. I realize turning things to sone could easily become ridiculously overpowered but maybe if there was a least SOME chance that nastier creatures could "get stoned". The rock throwing construct was also much improved although the damage done was pretty low. But hey at least the rocks HIT things now . . .

Anyway just some thoughts. Overall great.

-S

[FunkySwerve]

Thanks! Please let me know if the basilisk and medusa's gazes are indeed different - they run off the same script and the way I differentiated them was a question mark at best. I'm also planning to do the rak's ice storm and acid breath, once I figure out one or two details.
Funky

[sabregirl]

Basilisk and medusa gazes are different althouuh not by much. My medusa's DC is 43 while basilisk is 40.

Having a better ice storm/acid breath would be great. As it the caster level check for spell resistance SEEMS to run off of the druid levels. Even if that's not it, for me it almost NEVER hits anything with much of any spell resistance at all. So obviously I'm not using Rakshasa much . . . okay . . . Never. Even when the spell does hit, it's pitiful.

-S

[FunkySwerve]

Locking this thread. New threads for suggestions have been opened in the Class Changes forum, where they will belong. Hopefully those threads are a little less confusing to people trying to help out.
Funky