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Post by Delfestra Ruinvorn on May 11, 2006 13:47:50 GMT
Further spell testing results:
Wilting vs Sunburst: Sunburst - anti undead spell on the undead dragon Dustbone. Seems the perfect place to use it, right? Wrong. Horrid wilting (the necro spell most undead are immune to) does approximately TWICE the damage of Sunburst. Both are magic damage.
Wilting in general: Most of the time, it seems to do markedly less damage than emp chain lightning and thunderstrike, despite being a higher level spell and in many cases, INCLUDING monster resistance to elemental damage. And including the fact that lower level spells are saved against more often because of their lower DCs. You may want to revisit the damage here and make is straight 60d8 at 60, because as it is, much of the time its more damage effective to use lower level elemental stuff, anticipate the made reflex save, and bull through their resistance and absorbtion, and STILL get more damage out the other side.
My wilting high is around 200 on a failed save...my empowered chainlightning is over 300. Thunderstrike unempowered does about 100-130 average, where as wilting averages about 80-115ish, with the majority falling between 80 and 95...based on what I've seen.
Ray of Enfeeblement: Was testing it last night in Illithids, since Gith don't have level/ability drain immunity. I can't be sure it ever actually landed. Which brings up a question for consideration:
If the spells are uncapped and scaled for level 40-60 play, and specifically get better at 40-60...but never actually work in practice on monsters in areas intended for 40+ because of low DC (its a level 1 spell, and others are level 2.3.4 etc...) - then how useful is it to uncap things and expand possible spell choices if many of them don't work?
I'm not sure what the solution IS, but its something to consider - Trying to use level 1-5 spells on monsters with saves scaled to be hard for level 9 + epic/ll focus + maxed int/wis with a bard on top...well, +60 save just is never going to be effected by a level 1-5 spell unless they roll a 1, and 1/20th of the time just isn't worth memorizing.
Again, I'm not sure what the solution is - I mean, scaling down monster saves to allow level 1s to work could make level 9s utterly tear them apart every time...but the question remains, if low level spells are to be useable in high level areas to give casters more diversity in spell choice...they've got to work, and for ones that are "save = no effect", low DC would make them useless, no matter what effect they start to gain at 41+. For low level damage spells, where "save=half damage", they'll just do half damage 19/20ths of the time. So even a 60d6 fireball wouldn't pack the punch of a 60d6 meteor swarm, just on save percentage (not that I'm arguing for a 60d6 fireball mind you, just talking the reality of low level spell DCs vs actual monster saves in actual 40+ zones, where we intend 40+s to go play)
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Post by hiryuu on May 11, 2006 18:54:30 GMT
My wilting high is around 200 on a failed save...my empowered chainlightning is over 300. Thunderstrike unempowered does about 100-130 average, where as wilting averages about 80-115ish, with the majority falling between 80 and 95...based on what I've seen. I don't really have a problem with that damage discrepancy. Chain Lightning is the most likely to do nothing (Evasion, element immunity, spell level immunity) and it destroys loot in the area. Thunderclap may be a bit low damage-wise, but it also packs other effects. Horrid Wilting, being magic damage, does pretty consistent damage to everything, and Evasion doesn't stop a Fort save. There is no best spell, but simply the best one for the situation, as it should be.
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Post by Delfestra Ruinvorn on May 11, 2006 23:01:12 GMT
I agree that there should be no best spell - but when lower level spells do more damage than higher level ones, even against monsters that are in theory more resistant to that type of damage, then I think something may be out of whack
And you're right that evasion doesn't cancel a fort save - but some other things do cancel wilting: Being undead generally does, and shadow shield also.
Which makes it very interesting to see undead with evasion - like ancient guardians or the bigger deepbats.
Point being, that is what the effect IS in practice. Whether or not the damage effect in actuality is *as intended by the balancing gurus* is an entirely different matter. Thats not up to me - I just say what I see and let the DMs figure out if whats happening is as it should be, or not.
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Post by ZeroGravitySE on May 12, 2006 0:40:13 GMT
I feel druids are still underpowered, and most druid spells, almost 90% of them destroy loot. Call lightning, Bombardment, Earthquake, Ice Storm, which are the best evo spells for druid I think. But call lightning gets resisted like its nothing so I'd rather have quilfire, and if your a new druid its kinda hard to know when not to cast a spell if there is loot hidden around the corner. Most casters, Wizard, Sorc, Cleric, PM, and so on... All have some type of bonus defense too, Druids are left in the dust when it comes to defense. Clerics can wear heavy armor at least and have the best buffs in the game. I'm trying to get a understanding of why pure caster classes other then druid have alot better defenses so I started this thread. highergroundpoa.proboards3.com/index.cgi?board=Thoughts&action=display&n=1&thread=5714I prefer to help my group and try to keep them healed but when all the monsters turn on me because they notice they aren't getting anywhere with other characters, I probly have a 90% chance of dying in Sssy, and I haven't even been to ill area's. So only "god knows" whats in store for me there. Druid is a front line defense caster. Thats how it should be, but with the lack of discipline and other skills alike im forced to trail in the back and rush in for heals, but we all know with lag, u cast the heal and get teleport back 5-10spaces. Maybe im just stupid and can't get a proper build to work, but I thought I built my druid great, only to learn that one monk might of been better, but even with that said I lose my best pet, and I thought that was the balance? Its more like a joke when you summon a pet in battle and poof its gone, unsummoned and only took one simple spell to do it. So in my eyes in some area's the druid is still ineffective because of the loot breaking and the point I have to be close range for some spells and some of my LL epic spells lack the flavor that is needed to make my class even better. Wizards can wail, clerics can implode, a good build can probly make it so you can solo entire LL area's. You just need the right gear to do it. A pure druid is stuck with a AC under 100, and concealment under 60% at 60, but thats for the group. What about all the good self buffs, because im forced to wear armor the same spells that wizards get like energy buffer, Premonition, greater stoneskin, and other buffs alike don't work as good since I'm FORCED to wear a shield and medium armor. A pure druids dmg output is good, and as you build your wis up it becomes better. But druids lack in the defense department! And still in my eyes somewhat the offense department because most other classes have something that is extremely unique to them, and druids are kinda the red-headed step child of the spell casters. Everyone else got a huge boost in power and druids once again slack behind! =/ I just want the class a little more fun to play things are starting to get annoying with the worries of loot breaking on almost all my offensive spells unless single atk, wiz's meteor don't break loot? Implosion don't break loot, wail don't break loot and other spells that puts those classes on everyones top 3 list.
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Post by FunkySwerve on May 12, 2006 2:08:20 GMT
Your remarks on spells aside (I think druid spells are extremely healthy atm), I just logged in my druid, who I haven't played in literally months. 109 ac unbuffed. With months-old gear. I have a monk level, but it does me no good ac-wise until I shift, since I'm wearing immo plate and toting a shield. Druids are better off than clerics defensively, with the conceal, as well as all strength builds. Your build needs work. Funky
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Post by ZeroGravitySE on May 12, 2006 2:21:24 GMT
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Post by doomsdaybringer on May 12, 2006 2:39:31 GMT
--"A pure druid is stuck with a AC under 100, and concealment under 60% at 60, but thats for the group. What about all the good self buffs, because im forced to wear armor the same spells that wizards get like energy buffer, Premonition, greater stoneskin, and other buffs alike don't work as good since I'm FORCED to wear a shield and medium armor."-- how can you ac be still under 100 at lvl 60? what gear? and dr of the same lvl dont stuck... so premonition and greater stoneskine shouldnt give you more damage soak.and if you are wearing sheild and medium armor that spell will still give 30/+5 at lvl 60
PS if this make you feel better i too think druid is underpower..... but again every class is underpower when you play one just look at you and me complain about about st tank and how much delf want to increase his/her mage's spell power...
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Post by FunkySwerve on May 12, 2006 3:48:41 GMT
If you want build help, post in the Drunken monk, or heed some of hiryuu's advice in that thread. This forum is for bugs and problems, not build help. You should definitely be using heavy armor, btw. Leather also works if you have 6 dex bonus, though that forces you to wear extra gear for that. Funky
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Post by ZeroGravitySE on May 12, 2006 4:42:11 GMT
If you want build help, post in the Drunken monk, or heed some of hiryuu's advice in that thread. This forum is for bugs and problems, not build help. You should definitely be using heavy armor, btw. Leather also works if you have 6 dex bonus, though that forces you to wear extra gear for that. Funky What about removing loot destruction on earthquake and bombardment? That possible...?
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Post by Delfestra Ruinvorn on May 12, 2006 16:09:16 GMT
You also get Premonition, which is pretty sweet - though using a shield may crimp its special abilities for you.
As to loot breaking spells - unfortunately, thats the reality of life on the server - we all have to be careful with what we cast...and intelligent tanks/banks often rush around turning the loot spawns into remains bags so we can cast freely.
Did I tell you about the time I accidentally hellballed a room of once-per-reset dropping super important loot?
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Post by ZeroGravitySE on May 12, 2006 16:44:22 GMT
You also get Premonition, which is pretty sweet - though using a shield may crimp its special abilities for you. As to loot breaking spells - unfortunately, thats the reality of life on the server - we all have to be careful with what we cast...and intelligent tanks/banks often rush around turning the loot spawns into remains bags so we can cast freely. Did I tell you about the time I accidentally hellballed a room of once-per-reset dropping super important loot? Sounds like a fun story =), I just wish some of my spells didn't blow up loot because in some area's like the underwater area's I can't see that well, and for future druids I just wanted to make it a little easier. I understand that the server is very skilled and there are some very talented players here, or I wouldn't waste my time being here. I just think its unfair that ALL my evo atks destroy loot when most other classes have at least one spell that they can AE and not blow things up. It limits me when the tank runs in, and stands next to loot while taking on 4-5 monsters. I keep an eye out, I might be absent minded sometimes because I still consider myself new here, and most my experience is offline where building max builds really isn't the thing, it was more about role playing, and story building for most modules. I play the class 24/7 all area's, so I'm just throwing in my experiences.
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Post by Delfestra Ruinvorn on May 12, 2006 17:51:02 GMT
I understand what you mean, though for me I have a bit more variety...underwater I use almost exclusively necromancy - which of course doesn't blow up loot.
I wish I could come up with wacky ideas to use what you have, but I've basically never played druids, ever. Call me biased, but back from the days of D&D 1st edition, I think they are silly and much prefer clerics.
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Post by ZeroGravitySE on May 13, 2006 1:22:57 GMT
I understand what you mean, though for me I have a bit more variety...underwater I use almost exclusively necromancy - which of course doesn't blow up loot. I wish I could come up with wacky ideas to use what you have, but I've basically never played druids, ever. Call me biased, but back from the days of D&D 1st edition, I think they are silly and much prefer clerics. I don't know I think I might quit playing druid if funky doesn't improve the class, its weak.. I'm great group support but at the rate I die in sssy, I'm really tired of starting over, I built 3-4 druids and leveled them to 40 or above. I really think they need improvement as a spell casting class. I'm feeling like no one beleives me, but yet everyone has a story of druids ending up on the ground first? So ..... ? *EDITED* I've changed my mind after talking to a few friends, and decided that I'll hold off on commenting on the druid till I hit 60, sorry for being difficult funky, I just want the best for my favorite class.
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Post by FunkySwerve on May 14, 2006 7:22:04 GMT
For Magic Missle, there's a discrepency that I can't quite figure out. The BOOK says that it bypasses magical resistance. Do you mean SR, or Magica Damage 10/- or % immunity? Because if its intended to bypass 10/-, it just doesn't do that under testing. What was the casterlevel of the caster? Only supposed to bypass immunity if over casterlevel 40. Thanks, Funky
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Post by Delfestra Ruinvorn on May 15, 2006 17:04:51 GMT
The caster was me, so at 59 and 60.
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