Harm & Regenerate & Bigby's Grasping Hand

[mishimayukio]

It may be just me, but I seem to be having trouble penetrating high SR with this spell, but no others. I'm guessing the penetration of this spell was not scaled for LLs. I should not need to have my rogue use a mord scroll on a hulking sander ( 67 SR IIRC, and I have 68 penetration) before casting and still have a 50% failure rate.

-EDIT- It seems bigby's grasping hand has the same problem as harm. 70 SR devarials should not resist a 68 penetration bigby 10 times out of 10.

-Regenerate post below-

[mishimayukio]

This would also explain the issues im having hitting ssithraks with it.

[ryancian]

I'd just like to second the harm 'problem' if indeed there is one. My penetration is sufficient such that I should hit the big sanders in the desert about 50% of the time but I can easily go through 30 harms without a scratch. And I hit with the dc roll every time. Aggrivating at the least.

[mishimayukio]

I'd also like to point out that now that the cleric/druid spell regenerate has been debugged, it would be nice to see It scale as it says in the spell changes book. It is currently giving Kyon 24 regen instead of the 32 that it says in the book for casterlevel 60.

[Ironfang]

I just assumed that all those creatures were immune to Harm...

[Delfestra Ruinvorn]

If they were immune to harm specifically, they should get the little white orb around them. I've run into that problem with grabby hands in Ssithrak and the desert as well.

Perhaps the clerics or devariels have freedom of movement...that may account for it. Still, they shouldn't "resist" me and yet they seem to every time. If they were immune, I'd expect a different graphic or combat log result. And we all know I have a 68 spell penetration, so it shouldn't a SR issue.

It is annoying though. Could someone comment if that is working as intented?

[ryancian]

There's definitely a message received for most spells when the defending character is immune and I've never seen that as far as desert mobs. I know I've also harmed them in the past so that cant be the case.

[FunkySwerve]

Fixed all 5 bigby spells and harm in coming update. ALL spells should either have their effect (with save if applicable), or result in either a) an immunity sphere or b) a resistance check readout. If they don't, that means they haven't been modded for LL, PMs, or Quasiclasses, and need to be reported. Spells that are likely to be in this category include spells whose core effects are unmodified from nwn standard versions (ala harm, bibgys). Until recently this included the ILMS and IGMS spells, for instance.
Nice catches, all.
Thanks,
Funky

[Ironfang]

Sorry to bug, but is Missle Barrage (Spell Penatration) a similar fix that could be applied to next update? Forgive me if its been fixed because I haven't played my Sorc in a couple of weeks.

[FunkySwerve]

No. To reiterate: epic spells will be scaled to LL when feats are.
Funky

[irongolem]

Also: AFAIK Bigbies Grasping is an AC check against the FULL ac of the target (as opposed to touch attacks, which are normally against a subset of the ac, iirc); so with high ac on mobs, you're likely to fail your dc check at all times - only on a lucky 1 will it get through, even if you've dedicated your build to evo.

I don't want to presume this isn't updated for HG's high ac mobs, but if not then perhaps this could be considered a way forward to improve the spell...

[FunkySwerve]

It is a check against the full ac, but any caster worth their salt is unlikely to fail against a mob of any kind. Not sure what you thought the check was, but I'll set it out:
Grapple Hit
If caster ability mod (CHA, INT, or STR depending) + casterlevel +d20 + 11 is greater than the targets ac, the grapple hits. This was nearly impossible to fail even before LL were counted in casterlevel. Highest AC in the mod = 70ish atm. Level 40 + 25mod (26 maybe, but whatever) + 11 + d20 is minimum 77 for a lvl 60 caster with maxed ability. The current modifications (as of next update) bring that to a minimum of 60+25(26, maybe) + 11 + d20 = 97.

Grapple Check
Nearly identical. If caster ability mod (CHA, INT, or STR depending) + casterlevel +d20 + 16 is greater than the targets ac, the grapple check succeeds. mins 82 and 102 respectively.

The different spells use those checks differently. Level 9, for instance, requires both a hit and a check for the target to be effected, only checked once. Pretty much impossible to miss, as is the case with the rest of the spells. I'd drop them for bewing so overpowered if they weren't already in the default version, and I still may, but it isn't really a priority. You may note that it could still prove challenging to hit pcs, but that is entirely attributable to to the ab/ac gap on HG. Subtracting the standard 40 for guild combat yeilds a spell that is every bit as overpowered as the original.
Funky

[Delfestra Ruinvorn]

While it is true that the *max* caster modifier is about 26, that doesn't mean all casters are "perfectly spent". My caster mod is 23, for example, and won't get any better. People created before LLs may be in similar boats.

And while I understand you have to take into account the maximums for balancing, that doesn't mean you can assume everyone has attained it, or will attain it.

[irongolem]

Not sure if I read the script right (probably not, but anyways); taking grasp:

• 1) To HIT the opponent, among other checks (friendly/etc), [glow=red,2,300]d20+casterlevel+modifier + 10 -1[/glow]. Opponent only has their full AC to protect them (I base my concern on my previous "What AB" post, where even your suggestion was, as much as possible - over 60 seemed the consensus [indicating mob ac around ~70 in tougher area's?])
  
• 2) To GRAPPLE the opponent, ie to make it actually affect the target, the caster does similar check: [glow=red,2,300]d20+casterlevel+modifier + 10 + 4[/glow]. To beat it, the opponent then does: [glow=red,2,300]d20 + baseattackbonus + sizemod + strmod[/glow]. Have no idea of the str mod, but I guess it's high judging by damage pushed out by mobs?
  

Uhm. Ok, I know I'm not really making much of a point, I guess my real concern is that, the d20 is not really a bonus - it's (technically) cancelled, and possibly more. That leaves mod+caster level.

I guess more importantly, the stat readout will help determine what the actual success rate is... and, um. Now that I've made an already over-long thread longer, I'll sit down and hush

[FunkySwerve]

delfestra said:

And while I understand you have to take into account the maximums for balancing, that doesn't mean you can assume everyone has attained it, or will attain it.

I don't think you do, because I'm not assuming anything of the sort, just throwing out a benchmark.
Funky