Let me start off by thanking Fusa and whoever else was with him for ambushing the McFobs as we were on our way to Xul last night. It was a ton of fun, and breathed new life into HG for many of us! Not really sure what your guild name is, maybe due to too many beverages last night, but it was a hoot!
Now, not exactly sure if we followed proper guild rules or not. Fusa and folks came up on us and started pick pocketing. The McFobs retaliated with attacking. I should note that before the conflict, we sent several tells back and forth and, at least from the McFob end, we invited the enemy guys to come and attack us. This morning, I have read up on the guild war rules, and it seems that we may have been out of line, as it isn't really clear to me if guild wars are just a big pick pocket festival, or if combat is actually allowed. There was no 'official' declaration of guild war, but I think skirmishes should be allowed before an all out guild war is declared. Anyway, it was a lot of fun and I apologize if the McFobs fractured guild rules, and would appreciate it if people who have been in guilds and guild battles would post their thoughts and clarifications.
PS nevermind about removing guild tokens, figured out how to do it!
Apparently, the war (or in this case, aggression intended to provoke a war) on HG is ONLY about PP and Fusa, Lycoris, et al don't care whether or not you have a guild token. Amarise does not and has not ever had a guild token, yet was probably the first person PP'd since she was standing right by the door attacking some Drey. Neither Amarise nor Amaretto sent a single smack-talking tell to any of these people, nor even used shout at all last night.
PPing someone once or twice to provoke an attack is plenty. (My understanding is that by PPing someone you open yourself to any attack.) Continuing to PP every rare and UR you can get off of someone is grief play, plain and simple. To "thank someone for their donation" afterward is crass and meant as further provocation.
Fusa, or Ahala in general, did not want to fight the McFobs openly or fairly. They had plenty of opportunity to do so without any repercussions or rules at all in the nearly 2 hours the McFobs spent in the tournament arena directly prior to the incident.
I can only conclude that by waiting for us to leave the arena, sending only thieves, and not ensuring that everyone they engaged had a guild token that their intentions were GRIEF and not guild combat.
I'm extremely disappointed that a DM would stoop to engaging in such behavior.
Furthermore, on a more personal note, no dwarf should craft his (her?) armor to be only a series of straps. I'm officially nominating this person for "What Not to Wear: HG Edition" and will be happy to assist with crafting. Even Rosa and Trueshot McFob are more or less covering themselves lately. I'm sure I can find SOMETHING to make a dwarf look attractive and not like a bodybuilding competition reject.
Right, I think you are pretty much right on the nose there NoobieGirl. And this is why I have posted what I have posted under FYI in the Guild Chat forum.
And you are correct, though I didn't have time to think of it at the time, but Lycoris is a DM, and certainly PP'd with his group to grief the McFobs. What did you think multiple PP would do, not cause greif? But it is goes further. Even after that much was done, they persist in spreading rumors about McFobs afterwards, with Mish getting Bellini kicked from 3 parties today (A mcfob who wasn't even in the pvp/pp). There is clearly a restraint problem here, and I know it has been in the past. The issue is some people take things way too personally, and I am well aware of baggage that Lycoris is carrying from the past.
I will reiterate a few things: PvP, sweet. Suprise PvP, even better. PP like the other night, low, immature, against the rules for causing greif while under DM supervision.
3. If the pickpocketing is frequent enough to interfere with your victim's enjoyment of the server, you must leave that person alone.
That is taken from the rules so i would imagine if you state to that person that you are not feeling warm and fuzzy about them pp'ing you that they would have to leave you alone unless I am not understanding the rules correctly. The rules also state that PP is not a guild only action and is a acceptable action on the server even without declaring war or even needing to be in a guild but can be seen as a provocation to attack and the victim can attack the person. I feel that in a lot of situations the one doing the PP'ing is much larger in levels and/or experience than the victim although in some cases pp'ing seems the only revenge one can seek on someone in this playerworld. Anyhow with the quoted section of the rules i guess my question is this: Since it is stated that someone who feels their enjoyment of the server can ask someone to leave them alone then what is the difference if they just say posted here asking to be uninvolved in any pp'ing because it would decrease their enjoyment?
Well, if Bellini was kicked 3 times from a party I would not be surprised. He has come across rather pompous and I'm not the only DM that has had a problem with this generalized attitude. Not to mention I must have rez'd him 30 times when doing the Abandoned Temple the other day. . . he wouldn't even heal. Serves him right if you ask me.
No wonder you are rejected with such immature attitude. If these people dont want you in their party it sure has nothing to do with Guild Ahala - you are making a fool out of yourself alone. To quote one of the many tells i got today, ''McFobs are a cancer for this server''. You're proving their point right.
I haven't seen any denial of a DM pickpocketing a non-guild member mulitple times. Was this the case? Using guild token before attacking would reveal guild status. This is one of the reasons I believe the PP rules of the server needs to be revisited. While it is not against the rules to do so, it certainly does not improve the experience of the victim, especially if their only crime was associating with a McFob. I also think it goes against the spirit of the rules intended.
I can see getting accidentley swept into a PvP battle while partying with guild members, whats the real harm besides a hurt pride, but losing prized items that are not so easy to come by for the casual player would leave a bad taste in my mouth to be sure.
The worst part is there is no true retailliation unless you happened to be a rogue yourself, a fighter will never hit the offending rogue. The only course of action would be to stalk them with a rogue to try to earn back your items which would just lead to a bunch of bad blood on the server.
I can understand Guild vs. Guild PP/PvP and Player vs. Jackass PP/PvP but something should be in place for those regular folk that don't want to lose their items or their enjoyment of this server.
When you read things like this in the rules on Guild PvP.....
"This includes pickpocketing, which is allowed regardless of the guild status of the victim."
You need to play as though you could be pick pocketed at any moment especially if your hanging with tokened players. The rules don't protect non guilded players from PP except when the PPing become harassment. For example, a player logs on Monday is PP'd. Then later that night they are PP'd again for no apparent reason. Then on Tuesday they found the same person lying in wait of them. Then they could report that kind of behavior to DM and seek intervention for future PPing. But, theres nothing against the rules when a player on a single session pick pockets all your items. The person doesn't need a reason for the PPing other then the player doesn't like the cut of your gib. Though most players will only do so if your behavior is out of line.
Because PPing is a reality on this server and is an activity that is supported by the server rules, I think its wise to play defensively. When I play...
1.) I never carry around items in my inventory outside of town I can afford to lose. URs stay in permanent storage chest (not the transfer chest) until they are needed. I carry res packs, helms of the immortal, common illthid gear etc that can be easily replaced if lost. This also insures that if your attacker is foolish and carries valuable items they are likely going to be on the losing end of the exchange.
2.) I build my characters with PP and PvP in mind though I am not an agressive player under normal circumstances. Almost all my characters can PP a person back while in combat, or at the very least can kill quickly and have enough of the skill to PP a corpse. There are also items in game that can boost your skill, such as a the Steal Materia ring at Rips.
3.) and I am caught unprepared and see that the person is PPing, I log my character. I don't stand there and fight a person knowing all my valuable items are going to be PP'd away. Go to the bank on another server and come back....or I will TP out and port back when I'm ready.