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Post by tl on May 24, 2007 13:32:10 GMT
Hii
A friend of mine like to start making a toon on the server, and he asked me to propose a build that can make it all the way.
I have looked at the build-index but haven't played enough to evaluate witch is best.
He is a "keep-it-simple-happy-go-lucky-strength-tank-type".
Any suggestions ... ?
Torben
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Post by gruntgruntson on May 24, 2007 13:39:41 GMT
Personally I like the Tin Can build. Dwarf of Steel does more damage, but loses out on RDD bonuses.
Dusty's Pal is a nice RDD build.
Staffmaster Quasi-Class can make a good build, but requires a bit more thought.
I am currently testing out str-based assassin builds, as their damage-output can be quite impressive.
IMHO. YMMV. Keep out of reach of children. Always replace lid after use.
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Post by bort on May 24, 2007 13:44:14 GMT
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Post by fragment on May 24, 2007 15:03:19 GMT
If he absolutely must play a str tank, give him some decent equipment to wear, and some advice what to combine  I found non-dexer tanks to be pretty gear dependant. |
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Post by dodrudon on May 24, 2007 19:06:32 GMT
I'd say go with a dexer tank if possible, those survive a LOT better.
And tell him casters rulez0rz a11 t3h w4y ftw.
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Post by fragment on May 25, 2007 0:15:15 GMT
I'd say go with a dexer tank if possible, those survive a LOT better. Yeah, I think halfling death/derzaggon is by far the best choice for a newbie who wants a character who survives LL, especially if you want to keep it simple. The standard shifter build survives LL as well, but shifters aren't easy to play. Though, it allows you to solo through certain areas, if you are so inclined. The tin can/artic dwarf will survive LL too - but he needs some nice pretty armor thingies which are practically unobtainable to a new player. He's in for a rough ride until he can pick up the right gear, bracers of weaponcraft +8 and a spell trap +7 just don't cut it for this character. |
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Post by Yomi on May 25, 2007 5:28:15 GMT
A dexer such as Halfling Death would be nice. Good AC even with non-ideal equipment (good, not great, but even low 120s plus self conceal 5 and epic dodge make one pretty resilient, and you can hit 134+ eventually). The will save is dodgy as is discipline, but I think it's workable. Also, as a pretty darn good rogue, you're going to get people happy to invite you on a lot of the LL runs (I definitely noticed this when playing mine). If you want str tank, be aware that most of them do take more gear to excel. Some partial exceptions to this include the Tin Can which gives huge physical damage immunity, good AC, and fire immunity, which really helps make this playable without the best equipment (and helps save your bacon in a lot of places even when you do have the equipment). Some of the RDD builds (e.g. Dusty's Pal or various 7WM builds) also have high AC and most people love seeing themselves as a big scythe-wielding monster banging out 400+ point crits. A Flurry AA is great once you get them DB bows, but in my experience there is a big hump from 30 to when you get one, where it can be frustrating. Seems like a lot to ask of someone new. But perhaps for later. Some of the monk builds do pretty well though he may be disappointed with damage output from a dexer, and str ones take some good skill to play. The dex versions do tend to be pretty robust, though I'm not sure enough more than a halfling death to go there. The very fast movement and high defenses do make them great for exploring. Shifters (e.g. Ability Mage) are indeed pretty fun, but I found level 40-50 to be more frustrating than most of my characters. They start to do great again in the 50s. It doesn't seem like it fits the initial brief of a simple tank build unless you want to stay in dragon form all the time. |
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Post by Trazik on May 25, 2007 5:39:41 GMT
I can speak from experience in support of the Dusty's Pal build. My first version was done with half-white dragon (free subrace) and I have upgraded to Dragonblooded. Both have/had Tiamat tag and are useful on all of the non-hells runs (granted, that is gear dependent).
My Dragonblooded version will have:
Str 72
Con 34
Cha 32
Similar general stats to Holyblazer (incl AB, AC etc) but saves in the 75 range, instead of the 65 range.
Trazik
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Post by Lythe Featherblade on May 25, 2007 8:09:40 GMT
Having started with a halfling death and then switching to a tin can (and seeing the gear available) I'd say tin can is better for starting than a halfling death for the following:
1 gear, Tin Can doesn't need a good amulet, can wear plate mail of the immortal, needs far less resists for all the LL runs; a couple of immo runs, some community chest items and a bare minimum of resist rings and you'll be sitting pretty gearwise.
2 saves, Tin Can can make it all the way to the hells with a free race (arctic dwarf) (if you can spare a dachy blood for your friend even better)
3 weapons; scimitars, light flails or bastard swords are easier to get hold of than rapiers and kukris
Points in favor of the halfling death:
1 skill points, with high appraise you can get almost double the cash for items from storekeepers than you could get otherwise
2 rogue skills - allow solo exploring more as you can open doors or more importantly open chests
Seen from a survival standpoint, a 40 tin can in immo plate will have higher ac than a halfling death at 40 in greater robes of the mongoose, more hp and better elemental resists/immunities.
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Post by tl on May 25, 2007 10:59:55 GMT
Thank you for giving your time and advices. It is very informative.
Torben
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Post by Yomi on May 25, 2007 18:49:29 GMT
Good comments Lythe on all points. I like them both and think either one would be a great choice for a new player.
You are correct that a Tin Can can pretty easily have great saves (60+ on all) vs. Halfling Death which will struggle with the will save. Also Discipline will be stupid high with a Tin Can while again I know my first HD struggled to get gear to raise it (though some of that gear I spent a month searching for runs to obtain I now see regularly sold for gold, e.g. psi actuator).
The elemental immunity is also going to be a big plus. Both can do extraordinarily well on any of the runs including pyramid, but the ability of the Tin Can to have innate fire immunity, 100% electric from a pentavite shield, and dr 30/- divine from belt of bestial resilience makes things a lot easier. I will say that the self conceal 5 of HD is awfully nice.
Again a very good point on weapons. Handaxe works well and isn't quite as hard to obtain, but in general the Tin Can is going to have a very wide variety to choose from, including Bastard Sword, Light Flail, Whip, Warhammer, Dwarven Waraxe, Battleaxe, Scimitar, etc. My experience with a new DD is that the new Bastard Sword crit range is awesome -- highly recommended as long as it doesn't get reduced in a future update.
As for Hells, a Tin Can was one of the first tanks to get Demigod, and was made with a race using -2 to str. I see no reason why an arctic dwarf version (open subrace) wouldn't do as well or even better. Expecting one's first character to go to Tiamat let alone lower levels is usually dreaming, but this is one build that can do it.
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