WarChanter thoughts...

[mrbadexample]

I'm starting this topic to try to get a better understanding of the Warchanter Quassiclass. As the class stands you need to have 16 CHA to get the chants which seems to be the main reason for the quassi. This is difficult to say the least because all dwarf based Subraces take a -2 CHA to start with, leaving your other stats fairly weak. I will admit I was excited by the class and tried to make one with my Battlerager, which performed fairly well in the test chamber, but in real world game play I couldn't hit anything, but still took the standard DD pounding.

The 2 obvious ways to go with this is STR based DD control classed WC, but this has a terrible AB and relies on the Chant of battle to get any form of reasonable ab. The DEX based Bard control classed WC is able to cast spells and has full EV which is nice, but you are unable to dual wield or use a torch. Not to mention your bard song is gimped by DD lvls.

Now my few is skewed I admit becasue I failed to see the true focus of the build and my failed attempt at a WC hit the garbage at lvl 35. Please if people who have made a sucessfull warchanter or have a better understanding please chime in.

[atomicsomething]

i dont know ....

I think my next bard will be a warchanter 18bard / 22DD ... STR type, heavy flail as weapon, robes for EV. I would completely drop song (Lasting inspiration, curse song) due to too low song level and feat shortage.
His buffed AB would be 71 (Using Salamader), not the best one but not too shabby.
AC would be terrible but 80% conceal with DD bonuses should compensate some for it.

If Epics are a part of this build's strength , i think that other spells tweaking should not be underestimated (Balagarn's Iron Horn first).

[fragment]

Here are some random thoughts

- If you play this as a bard-with-something, dex version, your bard song will not be *that* gimped as you get half the dd levels on your bard song. If you were to go 24 bard/16 dd you'd lose only 8 bard levels in the end, which is well within what's acceptable.

- I noticed that you don't have many subrace selections if you don't want to spend ability-point upon ability-point on abilities you're not going to use later on. One point is, for a STR version you need either the dodge feat at character creation or dex 13 and to take a dodge feat by level 11, as this is a requirement to become dwarven defender. Many of the dwarven subraces have -CHA modifiers and you need 16 CHA for the quasi. Only Battlerager and Howler might be good enough to counter that as they have the dodge feat. Of the general subraces, the by far most interesting one is Shard, Kolyarut and Salamander are interesting because of the dodge feat. I see no UR or secret subrace which immediately fits in, so any of these would be picked for fringe benefits - ever seen a Rakshasa dwarf? Of the free subraces, the dwarfen Derro (saves a feat), Derzaggon (DEX) and Artic Dwarf (STR) subraces might be a possible base, though the -CHA on the latter two might prove to be too expensive.

[mrbadexample]

My wife is playing a rak dwarf as nether of us have a Burr subrace to make this type of quassi work effectifly. It just seems to me that req 16 CHA for the chants when most of the dwarf based subbies have -2/-5 CHA to start with make is hard unless you go a rak or have a burr.

[atomicsomething]

Looks like i wont make a warchanter myself.

I've been toying around with builds and i dont find one who have any interrest.

I'd love to make a bard capable of using its spell offensively but it doesnt to work with warchanter :

Iron Horn : This spells seems to be usable. Its check is dependant on your level so the boost gained with DD level should make it possible to beat SR and win the STR check.

Sound Burst : err ... useless to me. you can have in theory a 68 to beat SR, but damage are too low (1D8 + 68 sonic ...) and your DC for stun and deafness will be too low as well. BTW, can someone explain me what's the point of adding deafness except for effectively annoying the bard trying to curse ?

Hold Monster : this one looks cool on the paper. Your theoric max DC is 58 (if 30 level DD and ad-hoc spell focus). In the real world (well in HG), no one will be able to reach it and would be more 51/52. My question about this one is this tweaked version is able to affect any mobs (immunity aside) or only those who can be affected by the normal version of Hold Monster ?

Neutralize Poison : cool, but round/based and i dont see much people dying out of poison these days. Should help low fort on your team.

Ethereal Visage : i think i miss something big on this one. any items means really any items ? (shield included) ?

Dirge : Useless. Been there with widow. With the 9/10 DC progression, i doubt this spell will have any effect even in LL.

Earthquake : cool.

[fragment]

So,

I built a warchanter up to level 42, and I consider it botched. I based it on a tin can build/battlerager, which lends itself very well to the warchanter quasi - you can make a warchanter out of a tin can with minimal compromises. Going 12 bard/18 DD/10 RDD you get 2 epics, the chant of battle, giving the party +16 gmw, and death of magic, which is funny to use against imploders. And it surely is a tin can, alright, and playing includes laughing at devariel arrows at level 40. Very cool.

The problem is, you need the level 20 bard song feat to get lasting inspiration (or your song will only hold for 10 rounds). Cursing is somewhat useful still, but the buffing bard song is completely useless, especially since you only have 12 bard songs.

So the warchanter as I built it will not function as a bard replacement in dire (bard-less) circumstances, as I had planned him. The low # of songs and the short duration makes him useless as a buffer, and the low # of songs makes him only slightly useful as a debuffer. It will function as a dwarven defender, of course, so good that I'd recommend anyone who wants a tin can to pursue this route, but I already have a dwarf of steel.

Concluding, if I were to make a new warchanter, I'd go caster-bard-with-unexpected-epics as the other route.

Regards!

EDIT no longer true since the latest changes

[fragment]

I played around some more, and I have to agree with Atomic - the quasi is at best redundant, at worst a build destroyer (since the latest changes).

Reasoning:

You can either use this quasi to make a bard (1), or you use it to splash a dwarven defender (2).

1) The primary stats of a bard build would be STR or DEX.

1.1) Going STR would result in a build that's practically defenseless (low AC, no innate damage immunity, or insanely low AC with insufficient conceal, and no innate damage immunity).

1.2) And any DEX-variant will always be outdone in every respect (defense, offense, song) by Yue bards. You get 3 moderately useful epics going 18DD/22Bard (the 16/24 route gets you an epic that's useless due to the low CHA you have), but that's most definitely not worth it.

2) If you splash it on a dwarven defender, you lose the stance that makes you crit immune, since you now have a quasi-class. That's a build-killer. (Also, you pay a hefty price in feats and ability points, which cuts into offensive and defensive capabilities (e.g. you can't take tumble cross class due to low skill points). You get too few (10 or 12), too short (10 or 15 rounds, no lasting inspiration) and too weak song, so singing isn't a plus for this build. Again, the epics you get are nice, but aren't worth it.)

Conclusion: Unless you can come up with an ingenious build idea which isn't covered here, don't build a warchanter.

[borges]

fragment said:

You get 3 moderately useful epics going 18DD/22Bard (the 16/24 route gets you an epic that's useless due to the low CHA you have), but that's most definitely not worth it.

I was first attracted to the quasi by the ability to cast the UUU bard epic without building a caster bard. One solution to this problem would be changing the duration of the epic when cast by a warchanter (based on caster level, STR/DEX modifier, whatever). Otherwise, I agree that the epic is not worth the cost.