Can I Hope To Stay Standing....

[wnxstrikefighter]

With crappy strength tank AC (only cc tumble), no conceal, 10-12% additional physical immunity, 8 DR, and about 1400 hit points?

From my experience the above stats would have you getting hit with nearly every enemy attack. I just don't know if 12% additinal physical immunity and 8 DR would be nearly enough to make up for that.

What are some minimum requirements for a strength build to stay standing and not just get pounded into the dirt?

[cathedralmaster]

wnxstrikefighter said:

What are some minimum requirements for a strength build to stay standing and not just get pounded into the dirt?

Good equipment.

[Yomi]

"crappy strength tank AC" can mean a pretty broad range. I have str tanks that range from 116 through 140 AC. The latter range certainly isn't crappy, but obviously is AC focused builds. A standard RDD or DD/RDD build can get in the 125-127 range before girding using UR and illithid gear (no BUR or Hells stuff). The lower range is more common for str types not using RDD, PM, or Hells gear, and can get painful sometimes depending on where you go.

Always get whatever conceal you can. Carry multiple copies of the item that grants a small amount of conceal -- anything is better than nothing. Get Displacement from a sorc, wizard, bloodfire mage, etc. if possible and you think it's needed. Or get improved invis from them if they don't have displacement. Have the druid cast mass camo when the group's formed up for buffs -- this is huge in the Hells, and unfortunately the druid on my last Tia run had never heard of the spell and refused to mem it. Or lastly have the druid use their epic shroud spell. Our druid in the group I did lower levels of Hells with was great about making sure the tanks had mass camo up, and it reduced damage and deaths quite a bit (as you'd expect when you get hit almost 60% less often).

Str types are, as Cath points out, more dependent on good equipment. Without some of the nicer gear you plain can't get your AC very high. Fortunately the new max dex mods on armor have helped give more choices. There are great items available on both ssithrak and illithid runs -- most of my str types wear 3-5 pieces of set gear from illithids (armor, shield, cloak, belt, amulet). You'll want your stats covered, the standard immunities (I find clasps of forewarned to be great for this), exotics (ecto weave is great here as well as the harm+WoF immune), and some physical DR, plus whatever elemental you need.

A DD/RDD will get very high AC (126-127 before girding and without Hells or BURs), tons of physical damage immunity and DR, immunity to fire, quite good ab, and ability to have saves all over 60. It's awfully darn robust. An RDD/pal build will be similar but without the +25-34% damage immunity, and saves of 70+ may help on the second round in Nessus (until second trip, I don't think 75 buys you anything over 65). Without even UR's, either of these toons should be able to tank well in pyramid without shunt (it's possible to cover all 5 elements), plus whack the mobs in there quite nicely.

My STR lifethreader with an AC of 119 or so does just fine in LL areas -- his 50% DI from equipment and standard gear reduction makes him robust enough -- certainly enough for his LT regen to make up for the damage he takes. He's replaced my AA as favorite character for maze running. However, without conceal he's just beaten to death in Avernus (the constant dex KD's stopping his threading don't help) -- a very different experience than dexers or the DD. Not sure how to fix that other than getting good conceal.

[wnxstrikefighter]

Thanks Yomi. I am mainly referring to non DD/RDD strength types that have AC levels of your threader. Of course I am assuming he will have nice gear and all saves to at least 60. But even with gear and an AC between 115-120 I am wondering if it will still do ok in many LL areas.

Even my PM with an AC of 132 and 50% conceal gets hit often enough. I'm just wondering if a little extra damage reduction and a bit more physical immunity will be enough to make up for the lower AC on a toon that is expected to be out front taking the hits.

[starlandra]

you must just have gear issues then. My DD (with no RDD levels) using a shield has 124 ac (119 when duel wielding) and only one bur item on. Once I get her uber gears she will get over 130+ with girding. So str is not always a bad ac toon.

[the1kobra]

If you're really desperate for a str character with high AC, go for the pale master. You have to be very careful, as you'll have to build a 1/2 BAB class into a melee tank build, and it will take a significant investment of levels and skills. Bard oviously comes to mind if you want to splash, as sorc and wiz are pretty much useless for a guy using fullplate and a tower shield. Just keep in mind that you would be giving up a lot to have a "melee" PM, and that your offensive capabilities are going to suffer. However, I do know one person using a BAB1/brd/PM combonation str tank that got his AC up to high 130s-140 range.
Don't expect WM type offence though.

[Yomi]

I don't think he was asking how to get higher AC builds so much as how to best survive with the ones that don't get all the bonuses. My str bard with 12 PM and 10 RDD levels has a very high AC for a str build, in that 135-140 range with girding and could be even higher with a strongheart amulet. The damage output is certainly less than focused str tanks, but it's workable. DD and RDD builds can get good AC and good damage output at the same time (DD's get the inherent +20 natural armor, RDD's get the AC boosts).

Using a +16 amulet, pentavite shield, UR heavy armor, and UR other gear my str LT (pure 20/20) has a 115 AC. That'll go up to a whopping 116 when he hits level 57. Without that shield that'd be 96 AC (not a DD so doesn't get the dwarven waraxe AC schtick). Using both Girding and a Strongheart amulet he could hit 124 at level 57+, but limited to that one amulet and at the mercy of the cleric with Girding. My Barbarian (barb/CoT/rogue), using all UR and thid gear, is at 118 AC. These characters just plain have low AC without BUR and Hells gear.

Not counting classes with bonuses like DD, RDD, and PM, str types are going to end up with 116 or 118 AC using illithid and UR gear, depending on whether they could splash a tumble class. It's possible to raise that 3 points with high dex and medium armor. Using DD control class or a Strongheart amulet will give an extra +4. Girding should give +4. RDD levels give 4-8. PM levels give a lot. Adding in BURs and Hells items raises that, but they usually raise the high-AC classes just as much, so you'll always be quite a bit lower.

[Trazik]

My Dusty's Pal build, whether it was Half-White Dragon, Dragonblooded or Half-Guardinal version only very rarely had issues with Graviter Thid attack or any other discipline score related attack. AC is in the 121 unbuffed with UR gear (only BUR I own is an AC-less ring).

With items I believe the discipline score is 125 or higher (currently lvl 57 with the Half-Guardinal version). This build can do any non-hell run with relative ease (unless in a bad party). Party balance is an easily over-looked factor.

Trazik

[fragment]

Wow, this thread is full of vets throwing insane numbers around

- My lifethreader followed a similar route - hitpoints, hitpoints, hitpoints - and did ok in Tia. She has 109 AC, and any conceal or immunity comes from equipment.

- I went to desert with a level 41 tin can/warchanter build with 99 AC. Worked out alright.

- My current incarnation of bard has 1k hitpoints, 91 AC, 55% conceal and pulls the desert except dev eryie (which is insane, ok , putting the "tanks" to shame.

The point being: Having >1k hitpoints does help, immensely.

Equipment-wise, what's much, much more important than the # of URs is the right mix of equipment. Since you're going to get hit a lot, you want as much damage immunities and reduction you can get, and you're going to have to cover each and every damage type with reductions. Miss one damage type, and the relatively slow drain of hitpoints you're going to experience will become a torrent. Case: I had a hard time fitting the UR bard armor (for perfom skill) on my current bard when she became level 50, as I had to drop the immo cloak I was wearing then, which has 20/ piercing. I played her for two desert maps, and it nearly made me going back to the UR-free equipment setup (but I plundered my high-AC rogue instead).

Regards!

[wnxstrikefighter]

sti15 said:

I don't think he was asking how to get higher AC builds so much as how to best survive with the ones that don't get all the bonuses.

Yep, this is what I was wondering.

I'm wondering if there is any point in building say, a brabarian, that is more focused on offense rather then defense.

Should front line fighters stick to one of these build everyone mentions with insane AC, or is it possible that a tank with 118AC and minimal defensive bonuses can suvive long enough to be useful.

[tyranlthixis]

A typical strength tank can reach 118 AC in plate before burs and higher at level 60 with burs. If you have decent dexterity, you an gain an additional 3 ac from medium armor. In addition, with use of the Strongheart amulet (set phleg drop) you gain an additional 3-4 ac on top of that.

Having said all that I was a front line tank with a less than perfect build (and UR subby) barbarian all the way through Cania with few problems (base 118 ac, 122 with girding). I don't have a Strongheart amulet. Yes I get hit but I have decent DR and enough hit points to survive. Also, gaining a little conceal through mass camo (ordinary druid spell) or even a invis sheath does help. You don't need the extra RDD or DD ac to survive if you have some common sense on the battle field. With the coming of BUR subraces a typical strength build is even more viable.

Another under used survival tactic is disarm/knockdown. For example, a juggernaut 30 fighter/7 wm/3 rogue would have UMD, large size, large weapon, great ab, crit immune, evasion, and epic dodge. In addition they would have access to all the legendary disarm, knockdown, parry (mini invuln)! This mean if you run into a nasty monster like a pitfiend you are not only going to be able to tank it but you'll be able to disarm it quickly rendering it offensively weak. You don't need uber DR or AC with that kind of a character. You just need to have a eye for the battlefield and be able to neutralize those monsters that are the biggest threat to you and your party.

Plus remember, if you have a good cleric/druid with you you're going to be benefiting from front line healing support. Tanking is not always about you, but the way the party supports what you are doing with crowd control, healing, and offensive spells/abilities.

Tyran