Druid Spell Focuses

[ZeroGravitySE]

therajah said:

zerogravityse said:

Your going to gimp your character if you don't have a decent DC for almost all your damage spells. You won't be as fun to play in other LL area's other then Hell. Hell isn't the sole reason why you should create a druid....

you're talking to a player with a demigod druid who chosed to max dc ( with LL focii and all great wis feats ) and took 'only' 4 epics. I regret that every time I log that character, better ignore 2 great wis and the ll focus and take a 5th epic.
That's using a old fallen angel, would be the same with a easy availabe kenku subrace. Fitting 5th epic and max dc would be now possible with half celestial but I'm not in the mood of rebuilding the same char because druids aren't really funny to play in hells.

If you're building your druid ONLY for LL areas then you 'must' have only transmutation. Other epics come for free depending which schools you want to raise dc in.

druids lack in power, they need a boost, that is defently true. What to suggest, I really don't know because I'm still new to D&D and sometimes things I suggest are a little extreme.

[Mitx]

Just so you guys know, I'm not building my druid just for the hells, But I try to build all my charecters, so that they are capable of going everywhere in the game.

From what i've read so far, I've decided to focus in Evocation and Transmution, and read either a Necromancy or Abjuration book, (not sure which is more helpful). I will also have Gr. Wis 9. (odd numbered starting wisdom)

Well I dont got many choices in terms of subraces, only non-base subraces I have are Treant and Minotaur.

What do you guys think of Treant as my subrace as opposed to the other ones I have available to me?

In my build I have also included Empower and Maximize in addition to silent spell, and was wondering if those two are really worth it?

I've designed my build, if you guys would like to see it just ask.

Oh yea, and is it worthwhile to max parry, Animal Empathy, and heal as a druid?

And is the save bonus from spell craft really all that helpful? (Yes, I already know it counts in the +20 cap from items)

[ZeroGravitySE]

mitx said:

Just so you guys know, I'm not building my druid just for the hells, But I try to build all my charecters, so that they are capable of going everywhere in the game.

From what i've read so far, I've decided to focus in Evocation and Transmution, and read either a Necromancy or Abjuration book, (not sure which is more helpful). I will also have Gr. Wis 9. (odd numbered starting wisdom)

Well I dont got many choices in terms of subraces, only non-base subraces I have are Treant and Minotaur.

What do you guys think of Treant as my subrace as opposed to the other ones I have available to me?

In my build I have also included Empower and Maximize in addition to silent spell, and was wondering if those two are really worth it?

I've designed my build, if you guys would like to see it just ask.

Oh yea, and is it worthwhile to max parry, Animal Empathy, and heal as a druid?

And is the save bonus from spell craft really all that helpful? (Yes, I already know it counts in the +20 cap from items)

Empower and Maximize aren't worth it. Its been proven that they don't really help that much when your short on feats with a druid.

spellcraft doesn't help much later when you have some of the best gear in the game, or even near the best gear. Because your gear will add up probly over +20, but not give you more then +20. So then spellcraft would of been a waste because of that. So I really don't think its worth it. Don't waste your time on parry, and animal empathy is very important for your epic and legendary pet. heal helps out in many ways with your heal spells and you can use heal kits at lower levels to help get rid of disease and poison.

Minotaur and Treant are both fun races but if your like me, when you reach 60 you want a style with your character. So craft armor doesn't work with treant, and minotaur, so I went with fallen angel but it was also given to me by a friend. So I got lucky in my eyes.

Necromancy is fun but abjuration is where its at. That extra spell resistance drop makes you more useful for parties because you can drop anythings SR, with that type of power; most casters beg to be around you, lol... not really but if I was a mage I'd feel better knowing that my druid friend had it.

[chainlink]

Skill preferences are Animal Empathy, Concentration, Heal, Discipline, Tumble & Parry (the last three ideally on a monk level at 40 to prevent cross classing) probably in that approximate order.
Animal Empathy - You really want that kick ass Legendary Lamasu don't you?
Concentration - Minimises spell disruption.
Heal - Buffs all your healing spells.
Discipline - Failed checks can cost you big money and screw with your spell slots if you're using a staff (and it gets disarmed).
Tumble - Get your free ac here!
Parry - Critical hit damage reduction, jury is currently out on this, it will be a lot more effective if you go the robes route but you will lose 10-20% damage immunity from armor.
Of course with the upcoming tweaks to (currently) useless skills and feats that may change.

[ZeroGravitySE]

I haven't been to hell yet but Druids are a lapdog in the hells, and doesn't stand out other then with shunt and natures balance. You run around healing people, dropping sr, and buffing your group with your epic spells. From what I've been reading about hells, the crit beat down a druid will receive isn't funny, nor fun to play. So unless your with the right type of people your going to be tossed around left and right by the monsters. I'm thinking of changing my faith from druid because of this reason. Druids might be one of the coolest classes to play, but there effectiveness at the high level game is questionable now from what I've been reading. Thats why you see people going with all epics because the druid spells are a joke when it comes to damage per second.

[phalthallus]

Having recently demi'd my druid, I can both agree and (respectfully) disagree with your comments Zero.

I went the 5 epic route, and lowered my DC because of it (using just thri-kreen for my race). All 5 were nice to have, except the camouflage one, but that's from Conjuration for my bombs anyway, so no way around that (unless you don't want to use Bombardment, which would be a mistake for DB and Thids runs, among some others). So I was quite bored making the transition from the Bombardment/EQ-wielding druid to a walking Healing Circle who can cast epics.

However, I can't say it's all that boring. It's simply different. Keeping your tanks alive, or shifter/archers from the KB they receive, while it may not be glamorous, is important. Lowering SR with Nature's Balance (if you have a max DC build) can be very important to help your Clerics Implode creatures, Mages grab, etc. My D2D and Immute both have saved a number of parties I've been to the Hells with. And actually my Bombardments do considerable damage (even with a lowered DC) to a number of creatures - many of the nastiest have a vulnerability to Divine damage. Just don't cast it around your party's Trans wall or loot. Earthquake still ignores SR in the Hells, though positive damage seems less useful than divine against most creatures (though obviously certain ones do have a larger positive vulnerability). Animal Empathy can be a nice bonus to have too, controlling a few of the meaner creatures in the Nine (although I'd love to see more enemies added to this list - starting with wasps .

I plan on remaking mine very similar to Tyran's build posted here on the forums, because as others have said, a Druid can help immensely in the Hells, and once you come to the realization that your role has simply changed, it can still be a lot of fun. You're not going to be killing stuff like an Implosion Cleric; you're not going to be "stopping" stuff like a mage (although you do have D2D once per day); you're not going to be dealing any physical damage and tanking pit fiends like a tank; but you're helping all of these people to do their jobs, and do them more easily.

Wasn't it Dupont that had a commercial like that? "We don't cast implosions; we make them work more easily. We don't tank pit fiends; we help tanks do that by healing them. We don't grab creatures; we make it easier for mages to do that".

[Stormchaser]

phalthallus said:

Wasn't it Dupont that had a commercial like that?

Actually that is BASF. We don't kill things, we just make killing easier!

[ZeroGravitySE]

I totally agree, phalthallus.

I've been adding to this thread in hopes we could maybe get some minor changes to the druid. I haven't been to hell like I stated, but I know the hell job isn't all too fun sometimes. Most people have stopped playing druid because of the reasons you stated above. Yes, druids are helpful but there jobs become a boring task that eventually makes people not want to play the class. So adding a couple more things to the class would make the class once again a little more attractive. Why would you want to play druid, just for epic spells, healing, and sr drop. When you can blow away things with cleric or wizard, and actually feel safe because of that fact? Where druid when cornered will get beat down? If the reason is because I need new gear, then druid class is only playable by vets. People who have a bank full of armor sitting around so they can switch things around? Druid would not be for someone just starting at the server, and therefor less attractive. I've been hearing since day one that there is always a shortage of druids, and I'm starting to see why. Its because no one wants to take the job. Its a cool job, yes it is. But its not glorified enough for a casting class thats suppose to have nature on there side.

[phalthallus]

Yeah I would agree with that too ZeroGravitySE. It's certainly not glorious. And while I think it would be nice to get a couple of small tweaks, I can't think of too many off the top of my head. Being able to empathy more creatures would be nice for sure though, and take advantage of their (and Rangers and Shifters) Animal Empathy abilities.

The biggest problem I see with druids is that their damage spells destroy loot and trans walls. And unfortunately not much can be done about that. And that's probably fine, since they have one of the few spells that deals exotic damage with a spell that ignores SR. It's always been funny to me (as someone pointed out in one of Delf's old posts) that Meteor Swarm doesn't break loot but Bombardment does.

I can sort of compare it to a mage in the Hells though - I've heard a great number of mages say they feel like they're relegated to just grabby hands. Obviously they have other tricks up their sleeves, but I've heard a lot of mages say they're bored in the Hells too. Same with shifters, who just stay in manticore form and medusa, and occasionally dragon form to tank.

You're right - there is a serious shortage of druids. I don't know why exactly, but I do know I got really burned out on my druid, since it's the only Hells toon I had/have, and nobody else was playing a druid it seemed like that they could bring. But I know there are others who have started theirs recently, and I do know of a few others from my normal Hells group. So they're out there; just not in the mass numbers that you see other classes. Though the same can be said of Wall mages now.

[chainlink]

Meteor Swarm = Flaming Sponges
Bombardment = Ball Bearings

[kaldair]

The big problem I'm seeing with my Druid & my son's Cleric is a magnification of old issues:

The classes have relatively low AC. When adding in the crits, and with mobs targeting low AC, it's dirt nap city ad nauseum ;<

Kaldair

[ZeroGravitySE]

kaldair said:

The big problem I'm seeing with my Druid & my son's Cleric is a magnification of old issues:

The classes have relatively low AC. When adding in the crits, and with mobs targeting low AC, it's dirt nap city ad nauseum ;<

Kaldair

That is another issue. I've been reading combat logs posted from hell, and the critical damage is insane. Its almost like something I did while playing around with the toolset one night and just wanted to see how tough a monster I could make.

But atleast clerics have great offensive spells that can get them out of a jam. When bombardment like chainlink mentioned is great but doesn't kill in one hit, and when monster are running at you at very fast speeds, and your ac is low, and the tanks can't hold the agro, well, guess what? Its beat down time for mr. druid. If druid won't ever be improved on this end, I'll just never support them and tell people never to play them other then for the epics. Because thats the ONLY thing that makes the class stand out, is there epic spells. Bombardment is nice, but you can't kill things in one hit. So your damage per second can't even touch cleric or wizards.

Wizards can atleast hold things in place? Thats more powerful then most druid spells right there? Why you ask do I say that? Because if you can hold something in place, obviously its not chasing you around beating you around the map causing you to have a heart attack because you don't want to die and fail your group.

[phalthallus]

I agree that druids are very weak defensively, as are clerics. Clerics get GS though, but Druids, thru UMD, can cast it via scrolls. And taking my demi druid back to Tia was quite painful. I was taking a LOT of dirt naps (mostly due to my poor play).

But there are a number of Demi druids out there (I know of 3 off the top of my head), and they've all shown it's possible. Speaking from personal experience, it's all about mob management, and having a good party. It's up to the tanks to pull well, and to grab monsters as they come in on the group. Mages have to know who they can successfully grab too. If you do this, and use choke points, then it's less of an issue.

I agree that they are weaker than a number of other classes, both offensively and defensively, but just saying that they're not worth playing because they 1) can't kill things in one hit, and 2) can't stop things in their tracks, is like saying caster bards aren't worth playing either. It comes down to having to be okay with being a support class, which a vast number of people are not okay with. But I relish the fact that I've saved party wipes before because of my epics, so I'm okay with that.

So saying they're ONLY good for their epics, healing, and SR-lowering abilities, is like saying a bard is ONLY good for their songs, and clerics are only good for implosions and healing. I completely agree that Druids aren't THE toon everyone's making to take to the hells, but I will argue that they make runs much easier in a number of areas, just like a mage or shifter. The grabby hands we refer to, and the implosions from clerics, are both made easier due to the SR-lowering ability of a Druid, through both Nature's Balance and Frailty. So it's all about party balance, and that's what a Druid helps bring to a group.

I will agree wholeheartedly though that it's a much less than glamorous job.

Edit:
Wow, just realized that druids get Parry as a class skill. I REALLY can't wait for that Reincarnation system. This alone is a huge boost to druids defensively, and should definitely not be overlooked. I agree with Chain that some others (Concentration and Discipline, probably Tumble and Animal Empathy) all come first, but it might be worth some extra Int to get it. With your terrible defense, dropping crit damage by 50% is very nice.

[sabregirl]

I can't say I agree with the idea of druids being a support class only. Unlike a caster bard a druid is a true caster. They get 9th level spells just like wizards, sorcerers and clerics yet they seem to be very lacking in both offense and defense compared to any true caster and even most of the quasiclass casters. I'd also say a druid has far less to do in a hells party than even a caster bard. Singing for people that go down, taunting and cursing are plenty to keep you busy, although you can't kill anything on your own there are many more meaningful ways for you to contribute. Besides there are OTHER versions of bards that are actually able to hit things and do damage, there pretty well are no such versions of druids, aside perhaps for lala's dragon.

The druid is only asked to shunt heal and shut up, frequently even in LL areas where bombards actually work. Druids may have a few minor functions such as emping a wayward critter or two or getting yelled at for breaking something. In general the druid's combination of spells, abilities and epics is far more situational than other casters, and even then the situations generally demand the druid's epics rather than spells. Druids do get some of the best epics on HG (including some of the underused ones such as the summons and mass damage spell), but their true spells are still very limited. No one begs for specific druid spells like they do for a cleric or arcane caster "Come on don't you have any infestation of maggots memmed?!?!?".

Bombards, eq, nature's balance and even quillfire can be very nice at times but they very frequently pale in comparison to the diversity or sheer specialized power of other casters. After playing your druid with other casters in a lot of areas (though not all), you kind of feel like the small guy in the locker room that wants to go home and sulk from the sheer overwhelming feeling of inadequacy. ;D

-S

[ZeroGravitySE]

phalthallus said:

I agree that druids are very weak defensively, as are clerics. Clerics get GS though, but Druids, thru UMD, can cast it via scrolls. And taking my demi druid back to Tia was quite painful. I was taking a LOT of dirt naps (mostly due to my poor play).

But there are a number of Demi druids out there (I know of 3 off the top of my head), and they've all shown it's possible. Speaking from personal experience, it's all about mob management, and having a good party. It's up to the tanks to pull well, and to grab monsters as they come in on the group. Mages have to know who they can successfully grab too. If you do this, and use choke points, then it's less of an issue.

I agree that they are weaker than a number of other classes, both offensively and defensively, but just saying that they're not worth playing because they 1) can't kill things in one hit, and 2) can't stop things in their tracks, is like saying caster bards aren't worth playing either. It comes down to having to be okay with being a support class, which a vast number of people are not okay with. But I relish the fact that I've saved party wipes before because of my epics, so I'm okay with that.

So saying they're ONLY good for their epics, healing, and SR-lowering abilities, is like saying a bard is ONLY good for their songs, and clerics are only good for implosions and healing. I completely agree that Druids aren't THE toon everyone's making to take to the hells, but I will argue that they make runs much easier in a number of areas, just like a mage or shifter. The grabby hands we refer to, and the implosions from clerics, are both made easier due to the SR-lowering ability of a Druid, through both Nature's Balance and Frailty. So it's all about party balance, and that's what a Druid helps bring to a group.

I will agree wholeheartedly though that it's a much less than glamorous job.

Edit:
Wow, just realized that druids get Parry as a class skill. I REALLY can't wait for that Reincarnation system. This alone is a huge boost to druids defensively, and should definitely not be overlooked. I agree with Chain that some others (Concentration and Discipline, probably Tumble and Animal Empathy) all come first, but it might be worth some extra Int to get it. With your terrible defense, dropping crit damage by 50% is very nice.

I totally agree on almost everything you said. The only problem I have with parry is: can I cast while parrying? I don't know much about the parry skill because most people NEVER talk about it. I guess I should look into that skill a little more. I am also waiting for the reincarnation system, something I wish was around a year ago, so I didn't have to invest all this time I really don't have. Thats why I freak out when I learn the minor mistakes I make could effect the high game. I consider myself a very skillful player who learns extremely fast. But I have flaws sometimes because my character builds tend to be on the flawed side sometimes. I'm not as experienced as some people here that have put so much time into learning D&D and actually had friends to help them along the way. I've been solo most my life when it comes to trying to learn complex rules like D&D has layed out. Thats why I love being here, its a huge learning experience for me. Every comment posted I learn something and it attracts me to stay here and help the community in anyway possible, because I love giving back. Well thats obvious since I play a pure support class. I want the druid to stand out... as a support class. I don't want the class alike wizard, cleric, or bard. Currently it does a good job at what it does, but it almost feels as if the other classes that have been modified on HG are more fun to play. I want to increase the attractiveness back to the class. I don't know how to do this though because I'm new to D&D and don't want to make ridiculous spells and suggestions that I know I'll get laughed at.

If I where to suggest changes I would aim at the druid only spells that are exclusive to the druid class. But I think there are only a couple spells to work with. So I'm going to type out what I think should be changed, and then repost it in the suggestion thread and see if anything happens. I know things won't happen right away, and even a month from now.

So here is the druid info:

Alignment Restrictions: Any Neutral
Hit Die: d8
Proficiencies: Armor (Light, Medium), Shields, Weapons (Druid)
Skill Points: 4 + Int modifier ( (4 + Int modifer) * 4 at 1st level)
Skills: Animal empathy, Concentration, Craft armor, Craft trap, Craft weapon, Heal, Lore, Parry, Persuade, Spellcraft
Selectable Class Feats: Ambidexterity, Brew Potion, Craft Wand, Deflect Arrows, Quicken Spell, Skill Focus (animal empathy), Scribe Scroll, Spell Focus, Two-Weapon Fighting
Primary Saving Throw(s): Fortitude, Will
Base Attack Bonus: +3/4 levels


Spells
Level 1
* Camouflage - I would think this would be a self-only concealment spell. But instead it adds to hide? What druid needs hide on HG? Why not make it a self only buff of some type that will help the class in its lack of defensive skills & greater sanctuary?

Level 2
* One with the land - I've never used this "teleports you to a safe resting area" spell, because why would I in a group? Its almost a anti-group spell to just wisk you away when your teaming with newbs on the server. Like they know where you went? Why not make this another self-only druid buff? I don't know what to suggest but I do find this spell a waste in the druids arsenal.

Level 3
* Healing sting - with Quilfire being one of the main spells you use in this slot, and call lightning being the other. I don't ever see a use for healing sting.

* Infestation of maggots - I haven't found a use for it? It usually always get resisted when I try it.

* Quillfire - This spell at one time ignored SR, Which made it a great spell a year ago. But now that it is resisted all the time, its almost useless. Doubling the damage to this spell after 41+ would make it useful again, so instead of 1d8 + 120, should be 1d8 + 250. That would make it a very handy spell? Other then that its uses are once again very limited.

* Spike growth - a druid only spell going to waste, suggestion, no clue. But this is defently a spell I never see druids use, nor do I use.

Level 5
* Vine mine - this is a great spell, but I don't see it being useful when you already have a bunch of greases and entangles you can use in your lower level slots. I would suggest some minor change to give druids a way to hinder movement like no other class can do. A way to slow down any monster no matter how tuff the monster is?

Level 6
* Drown - Drown isn't as useful as it seems. If someone can prove me wrong on the type of monsters it effects, pls do. But I haven't seen a huge need to ever mem drown in my spellbook. I would suggest making this a higher level Quillfire? Something that can get past those shields Quillfire can't?

* Stonehold - This is a druid only spell that can be overlook when playing under 40. This spell could be a really great addition to the druid spells if it was slightly tweaked in some manor.

Level 7
* Creeping doom - this used to be a great spell, but after many tweaks I see and the 2 spell limit it is almost useless. I don't even use the spell no more at lower levels, because the damage it gives is always resisted before it even gets to do damage. I can clear the monsters out with other spells alot faster. This shouldn't take that long to do that much damage. I would suggest making it do higher damage in a shorter period of time. This way the spell won't lag the server because it last a very short period of time, and it then becomes more useful.

* Fire storm - 30d6 is nothing with the high resistances most monsters have. Its a nice none loot breaking spells also. The only problem is you make clerics a little stronger too. But who cares? Druids need the help more, and using empowered firestorm would be a ton of fun to use over EQ which breaks loot and doesn't have a SR check. Divine vs Positive. Sometimes I pick divine because of the monsters in the LL area's.

Level 8
* Nature's balance - This is another great spell that drops SR, and heals allies. The only thing I would change is the amount of hit points it heals? Why not make this like healing circle where the amount of hit points are pretty much like mass heal?

Level 9
* Elemental swarm - This spell is being completely wasted for druids. It really doesn't have a use, when you already get your epic pets, and have better summon creature spells?


I tried my best to come up with things that would make sense, and not overpower the druid. I think it the majority of those spells where redone a little the druid would never be in question again. But like my friend said "poop in one hand and wish in the other, and see which one fills faster." LOL

I hope this helps ;-)