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Post by stonewarrior on Jul 30, 2007 22:22:22 GMT
A few questions for those who have played Bards into the Hells...
I am in the process of making a Caster Bard (likely pure) and with an Intelligence of 12 can max six skills. My quesitons is am I maxing the right skills, should I change any or should I take 2 more points of Int to boost skill points. Real quick, my starting stats (pre Shard bonus stats) are S 8, D 8, Con 16, I 12, W 8 Cha 18.
The skills I choose are Concentration, Discipline, Heal, Perform, Tumble and UMD. I had considered maxing Taunt at the expense of Discipline but decided I probably need the Disicpline. However, as I will not be doing any actual fighting do I still need the Discipline. This will be my first attempt at a non melee (or ranged) character of any sort so any and all advice is more than welcome.
With a maxed concentration is Combat Casting / ICC all that necessary? I have been told it helps to cast spells when surrounded but since the only real spells I would be casting (other than buffs) are likely to be Healing Circles and Epics am I am wasting feats on them when I can possibly work to add another Epic?
Finally, after talking to another Bard player last night I started to ponder adding 1 level of Paladin to avoid having to take save feats which would enable me to add a 6th epic. Do I lose much by going 59 / 1 as opposed to 60 Bard?
Thanks in advance for any answers as well as any other advice / suggestions folks might have.
Peace, John.
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Post by Ommadawn on Jul 30, 2007 23:08:42 GMT
Taunt can be a nice skill to have but you'll have to lower your con a bit you increase your int. I wouldnt lower cha below 18 for a caster bard. You have the 6 main skills covered for a bard.
I took combat casting and improved combat casting on my bard as I didnt want any attacks of opportunity while casting. You'll need to get in close you people to heal them and will probably have a few creatures in range to attack you. It helps improve your survivability to have ICC.
Going pure bard will allow your song to give a nice 30/+15 stonskin effect on everyone with your song wheras with 59 bard lvls you wont be able to. Taking a paladin lvl will allow more flexible feat selection for epics. Its down to personal choice really whether you want to take more epics or not. I made my bard with all 8 epics for the fun of it and that worked out very nicely.
Hopefully some of this is helpful to you.
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Post by Stormchaser on Jul 30, 2007 23:54:21 GMT
Yes, because things will still be trying to fight you, such as fleshers, and gravitators, and all the hell creatures which have discipline checks.
Having lots of epics is very nice. Just keep in mind the more CHA you have the longer they will last.
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Post by stonewarrior on Jul 30, 2007 23:55:14 GMT
If I might ask, what subrace did you use and what was your final base Charisma? If I have it figured correctly using Shard I would need 21 feats for get GSF for 7 Epics and then use a book for the last one. Add in CC / ICC and a few save feats and you do not have many opportunities for Great Charisma...splashing a Paladin level and taking out 5 save feats would help if I wanted to more epics. Hmm...
In the end I plan to take a total of 5 Epics (Transmutation, Necromancy, Illusion, Conjuratoin and Echantment). My feat selections as of now is...
Spells (4 epics) = 12
Szves (LoH, LL, EW, EF and ER) = 5
CC / ICC = 2
Curse = 1
Silent Spell = 1
Great Charisma = 6
Free feat = 1
That would give me a base Charisma of 48 out of a max of 52. I could probably ditch Epic Reflexes as I would still have a save of 60 to allow 2 more Great Charisma's making my base 50 of 52.
Does anything stand out as missing?
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Post by iamaqt on Jul 31, 2007 0:33:15 GMT
IMO, sacrificing one bard level for a pally level to save on feats is the way to go. More people are going to like you having more epics that last longer, than missing that 1 save or 1 AC or the pure Stone skin... That is the way I am going to remake my caster bard.... Lots and lots of CHA.  |
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Post by Yomi on Jul 31, 2007 1:21:12 GMT
I chose the same skills you did on my caster bards (concentration, discipline, heal, perform, tumble, UMD). I'd love to have taunt, parry, and lore also, but just can't swing that many (14 INT, gnome). I did not get CC/ICC though I kind of wish I could. If I made a paladin splash version I would since I'd have spare feats.
The tradeoff of paladin splash vs. pure is debatable. I know a lot of people think it's clear cut that a paladin level is a must, but I don't think it's that clear. There are, from all accounts, an awful lot of Hells critters with effectively +14 weapons, meaning that without +15 stoneskin it's useless against them. There are a fair number where +14 still works at least, so it's not like when you had +10 stoneskin in the desert, which is just as effective as crossing your fingers and mumbling obscenities.
A pure caster bard can still get all saves 62+ by spending 6 feats. You get in return: 5% more conceal (almost 8% vs. blindfight mobs), and the +15 stoneskin. You also get a few trivial effects such as the +20 vs. +19 skills, +15 vs. +14 AC boost, a little more soak and total on your stoneskin and EB, 1 higher SR, and a few others. Those 6 feats could have been spent on increasing some stat 6 points, or taking 2 more epics, etc.
Personally I've made the choice to go pure, since I'd like to help the party out more with the better stoneskin. I certainly am not sure it's the best way, but it seemed preferable to me. I was advised strongly by a number of demis and double demis that this was what they would prefer in a caster bard.
I went all CHA with lousy str and dex on my first one. The str and dex are non-issues in LL areas, but I suspect she'll be KD'd all the time in Hells. And having a long epic duration is worthless if you can't stand up long enough to cast it, or end up using it in Limbo all the time. I chose to go 18 STR, 20 DEX, 22 CON, and 36 CHA on my second. While that won't make her immune to KD's by any means, it should help a little. Her epics will last 19 rounds instead of the 23-27 of a CHA focused build. Both seem very short to me.
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Post by fragment on Jul 31, 2007 2:16:02 GMT
I've chosen the same skills as you did, with the same reasoning, that taunt skill is to expensive on the other abilities. I picked: 5 epics, 62 cha@60, monk/pally cheese, improved combat casting. Saves are in the 70, evasion allows her to tank in special situations. I seem to be unable to use defensive casting mode properly so I'm happy I can cast my healing circles in relative peace. I might have taken spell penetration feats instead to make dirge useful, but didn't think of it when I built the character. That's a minor issue though. In hells, it's generally over when hell mobs come near her, in that regard I'm only a little better off than the clerics and druids. That also means that I have to carefully walk into positions where I can safely sing @ mobs in the front lines. Skillful tanks (tank playing, I mean) make this much easier. I cannot run around the battlefield like a dexer bard might or like I might in the desert. It's baby steps forward, then circles around the tanks. GS scrolls are your friend. I found epics duration so important that I sacrificed survivabilty for it, i.e. I went the all-charisma route instead of the 22 dex/22 str route. I wouldn't go below 2 minutes. With some timing of rest ring use, you can have kd and crit immunity up throughout a boss fight. Immunites, immediately rest (from within the wall, of course), rebuff, wait until epics wear off, immunities, and so on. I'm only tagged to Dis, though. I'm pretty happy with my bard. More important, my parties are usually pretty happy. Bards make people happy. You never hear so many people praising themselves, each other, their AC/AB/saves, their mad skillz, the great party ... than when you play a bard. Toon: Leyla |
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Post by atomicsomething on Jul 31, 2007 2:49:50 GMT
I did not get CC/ICC though I kind of wish I could. If I made a paladin splash version I would since I'd have spare feats. Defensive Casting does the trick when you dont have those, at least on the first hell layers, i started using it only very recently. The tradeoff of paladin splash vs. pure is debatable. Well, imho the cheese way for caster bards is the pure build, by far  Your analysis is pretty accurate (heh, i think exactly the same  ), the +15 stoneskin is as valuable as the Necro and Trans epics (if not more due to its duration and the fact it can be casted many times per rest ...) Getting hells worthy saves cost you only one (max 2) bard epics and some of them are definitevely expandable. The other bonuses to song are always welcome in deeper levels. and the +5% conceal is a big cheeser ... About skills, my AC never reached a level in hells able to protect me, so i just wonder if spending 60 points in Tumble is worth it ..... Over 40 you will just add +2AC (err, +4AC) and still being hit all the times except for 1s. Maxing UMD is nice, but there are not so many items i might consider using with it, personnaly i find the price too high (and i want my taunt ! ). |
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Post by Stormchaser on Jul 31, 2007 3:12:22 GMT
You don't really need lore skill ranks. Bard already gives you lots. My caster bard didn't put one skill point into lore and can still ID any BUR item in the game, after my song buff.
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Post by Yomi on Jul 31, 2007 7:37:38 GMT
You don't really need lore skill ranks. Bard already gives you lots. Oh, you're right. Confused from playing the other toons. No need for lore on a high level bard. |
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Post by Ommadawn on Jul 31, 2007 10:59:59 GMT
My bard has 44 base charisma and is Radiance Genasi, I dont have Shard. I didnt take any great cha feats as i wanted to take all epic spells. 23 round duration is long enough to get out of most sticky situations I find. knockdown is a problem for me at times (base 6 str, 8 dex) but i can usually get things cursed and move out of range quick enough to stay standing and heal the party. If things get messy with a nasty random I have the kd epic to use. EDIT: I "miscalculated" my skill points so i had enough to take 7 skills and i took taunt. A nice thing to do is taunt pit fiends when you have the kd epic up! They'll go down that little bit faster! |
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Post by zerragon on Jul 31, 2007 11:08:12 GMT
My caster bard has 5 epics, 42 base charisma and Radiance Genasi as Omma, but higher Dex,str and con, so can resist dex knockdowns and Gelugon dominates. For pit fiends i use the same strategy, run like hell out of kd area right after curse, or fire off the KD immune epic , worked pretty nice so far (@ Stygia). |
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), the +15 stoneskin is as valuable as the Necro and Trans epics (if not more due to its duration and the fact it can be casted many times per rest ...)