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Post by the1kobra on Jul 27, 2007 21:19:16 GMT
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Post by ZeroGravitySE on Jul 28, 2007 14:24:42 GMT
I'm aware of your build, but I did things a little different. I wanted another epic spell other then evocation, like you took. There are actually a bunch of differences, like when I took the feats, and of course taking necro so I can have the necro epic. But I need to rethink this, I might go with RDD instead of sorc. Sorc is a bit weak when it comes to getting beat up.
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Post by chainlink on Jul 28, 2007 20:11:13 GMT
Building in another epic other than evocation is relatively painless especially if you use Half-Celestial as you already get the two pre-epic evocation feats for free. My build did this and it was pretty similar to kobra's, I would also agree with him that focus in another offensive school is pointless as your caster level will be crap for anything other than evo.
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Post by ZeroGravitySE on Jul 28, 2007 20:20:34 GMT
I took it for the epic sorc spell. I didn't take it for the DC.
I'm changing this build anyways I don't really like it that much after playing with the numbers. I'm going to go with 10sorc, 50RDD, I'll post the rebuild.
I did take LL Focus Necromancy and I don't know why now.
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Post by the1kobra on Jul 29, 2007 3:02:06 GMT
Having an RDD primary is an entirely different build. Also, having only 10 sorc levels is a really bad idea, you get brands but no 6th+ level spells. If you want an RDD primary, go 19/20/1 Sorc/RDD/Pal. That way you are only stunted by 1 ninth level spell which to a bloodfire's limited selection, is not too bad of a loss. But if you want an RDD primary, you really need some sorc levels for more spells. You're not dealing with a wizard PM here. With the standard burninator, the trans epic is a must, and you can get that from a feat book. Of course, with an RDD primary, you might as well not even bother, you don't get epics anyway.
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Post by ZeroGravitySE on Jul 29, 2007 8:05:06 GMT
Having an RDD primary is an entirely different build. Also, having only 10 sorc levels is a really bad idea, you get brands but no 6th+ level spells. If you want an RDD primary, go 19/20/1 Sorc/RDD/Pal. That way you are only stunted by 1 ninth level spell which to a bloodfire's limited selection, is not too bad of a loss. But if you want an RDD primary, you really need some sorc levels for more spells. You're not dealing with a wizard PM here. With the standard burninator, the trans epic is a must, and you can get that from a feat book. Of course, with an RDD primary, you might as well not even bother, you don't get epics anyway. I'd rather have RDD primary. And if that is true, then epic spells are out of the question, but I still get to aim for 5 hellballs, that don't loot break. A dragon knight which is going to be upgraded soon, I've heard. I'll have high hitpoints and I don't know how good of AB yet, because I haven't started the build. I've been playing instead. I want a fighter/mage, who is more fighter. That RDD, Sorc mix qith RDD Bonuses and with Quasiclass bonuses make it sound worth it to go straight 50RDD. I'll probly try to aim for a nice weapon, and I'm still reading over new changes but I thought I read something about the the double large weapon now give you more attacks, I could be wrong, cause im tired and headed to bed. Don't feel like looking it up. But I'll work on my build tomorrow and give you the results of what I have in mind.
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Post by bort on Jul 29, 2007 10:29:37 GMT
I want a fighter/mage, who is more fighter. That RDD, Sorc mix qith RDD Bonuses and with Quasiclass bonuses make it sound worth it to go straight 50RDD. I'll probly try to aim for a nice weapon, and I'm still reading over new changes but I thought I read something about the the double large weapon now give you more attacks, I could be wrong, cause im tired and headed to bed. Don't feel like looking it up. But I'll work on my build tomorrow and give you the results of what I have in mind. I imagine meteor storm is quite useful for a BFM, especially in areas where firebrands are ineffective or can't be used. To have just 1 level 9 spell you need 18 levels of sorcerer and even then you'll only get 3 castings a day before gear / ability mods. 19 levels of sorcerer gets you 2 level 9 spells and 4 castings a day before gear / ability mods. With 19 Sorcerer, 1 Pal, 20 RDD it's still possible to get large size in LLs (at level 50) if you wish, as long as you take Epic Toughness 10. With 10 levels of Sorcerer you'll know only 1 level 5 spell and nothing above. Even for a melee BFM, i imagine you'd at least want 1 level 6 spell for Tenser's transformation, which would require 12 levels of Sorcerer.
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Post by ZeroGravitySE on Jul 29, 2007 19:35:04 GMT
I want a fighter/mage, who is more fighter. That RDD, Sorc mix qith RDD Bonuses and with Quasiclass bonuses make it sound worth it to go straight 50RDD. I'll probly try to aim for a nice weapon, and I'm still reading over new changes but I thought I read something about the the double large weapon now give you more attacks, I could be wrong, cause im tired and headed to bed. Don't feel like looking it up. But I'll work on my build tomorrow and give you the results of what I have in mind. I imagine meteor storm is quite useful for a BFM, especially in areas where firebrands are ineffective or can't be used. To have just 1 level 9 spell you need 18 levels of sorcerer and even then you'll only get 3 castings a day before gear / ability mods. 19 levels of sorcerer gets you 2 level 9 spells and 4 castings a day before gear / ability mods. With 19 Sorcerer, 1 Pal, 20 RDD it's still possible to get large size in LLs (at level 50) if you wish, as long as you take Epic Toughness 10. With 10 levels of Sorcerer you'll know only 1 level 5 spell and nothing above. Even for a melee BFM, i imagine you'd at least want 1 level 6 spell for Tenser's transformation, which would require 12 levels of Sorcerer. You are completely right in what you say. But taking those 2 extra levels take away from me getting all the goods at level 50 for RDD. So I haven't still started the build, but I will get to work on it on monday.
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Post by ZeroGravitySE on Jul 30, 2007 16:24:25 GMT
I have finished the build and posted the new 50RDD, which I think is very hot. Not only do you get to cast bloodfiremage spells, but you also get that large dragon form. I wish the size of the form was scaled better, but I don't think its possible in NWN1 without adding additional content.
The build isn't as weak as it looks on paper. I believe with the spells as a back up, you'll be able to blast at first and then charge in to do additional damage. I would pick a spear overall because its a large weapon and you can use it with a shield when you transform. I know there are caster shields out there you can use for sorc, and using medium armor should allow you to be free from the arcane failure.
I personally like that -3 saves, attack, and skills when in the LL area's bards are hard enough to come by, but when you do meet one, you'll be able to stack those negative effects.
Overall I think this build is very sound other then the AB, you might lack on that for a while but I don't think it will be that much trouble with how many people have GMW.
Tenser's Transformation will make you a more effective fighter, but at the cost of many things. So I don't think its worth to take those additional 2 sorc levels to get it.
Please feel free to comment I worked hard on typing all this out and would love suggestions or feedback on what people think, thank you
-ZGSE-
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Post by ladyq on Jul 30, 2007 16:52:47 GMT
Does having 10 Sorc Allow Max/Empowered Flamebrands? They are extremely important to a bfm. I'm not sure how much gear allows many additional lvl6/7 slots to fill this void that a build like this can make use of. I think the tradeoff of Meteors for the extra hellball and hitpoints is too big of a cost. Having levelled my 19/20(rdd)/pally to 60 with the largesize (~1600hp with tensors), the melee thing is extremely iffy in my opinion without heavy armor/tower shield. Unless you're planning only to do areas up to illithids/desert/sissthrak its better to leave the melee tanking/damaging thing to the meleers and focus on the spells/dmg options that make bfm in demand for the area. I like the idea of the non-pally splash because it is unique hehe. But I'm not sure if I've ever seen a maximizing charisma build not take advantage of the additional saves. I think its better to splash with pally to save on all the LL save feats to continue improving your spell DC/or establish some weapon focus to actually be able to hit stuff without relying on tensors (which strike me as more appropriate to baneknight/staffmaster builds). Blood fire mage is a mage, right?
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Post by bort on Jul 30, 2007 17:12:59 GMT
Shard is a BeyondUltraRare race (or BUR), btw. You have it down as UR in the title.
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Post by ZeroGravitySE on Jul 30, 2007 17:31:46 GMT
Does having 10 Sorc Allow Max/Empowered Flamebrands? They are extremely important to a bfm. I'm not sure how much gear allows many additional lvl6/7 slots to fill this void that a build like this can make use of. I think the tradeoff of Meteors for the extra hellball and hitpoints is too big of a cost. Having levelled my 19/20(rdd)/pally to 60 with the largesize (~1600hp with tensors), the melee thing is extremely iffy in my opinion without heavy armor/tower shield. Unless you're planning only to do areas up to illithids/desert/sissthrak its better to leave the melee tanking/damaging thing to the meleers and focus on the spells/dmg options that make bfm in demand for the area. I like the idea of the non-pally splash because it is unique hehe. But I'm not sure if I've ever seen a maximizing charisma build not take advantage of the additional saves. I think its better to splash with pally to save on all the LL save feats to continue improving your spell DC/or establish some weapon focus to actually be able to hit stuff without relying on tensors (which strike me as more appropriate to baneknight/staffmaster builds). Blood fire mage is a mage, right? You make some good points on this, but like you said, this is a unique build and it looks very fun to play. You have spell support for extra damage. You can tank but not as good as the best tank. But still you can. If you take heavy armor you also take away from your reflex saves, and having heavy armor also gives you spell failure back. Staffmaster is a better tank if you want to be PURE tank. But being able to use low level damage spells like firebrand helps a great deal in this build. The -3 to saves, attack, and skills helps out a great deal once you hit 50 RDD. This class is an above average tank that can cast bloodfire mage spells to boot. I think the 5 hellballs is hot also. There are better tanks, but this would be a support tank at 60. I've seen too many main tanks around lately and im kinda getting bored of everyone trying to be the best tank possible. I'd rather aim for a hybrid that helps the group in ways that aren't normal. So your usefulness is given a boost and people actually want you around. Shard is a BeyondUltraRare race (or BUR), btw. You have it down as UR in the title. Fixed...
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Post by Raj on Jul 31, 2007 0:44:40 GMT
Sry to tell you, but no, u cannot tank: no innate dr, no crit immunity, not good ac ( expecially if you try to use a caster shield ), no conceal; you're missing the armor and shield proficiency feats too
89 ab is bad for a bur race based build, and it's wrong too: it's 86 full buffed, because rdd is a tier2 for LLbab progression (+12); it's only 3 attacks/round, with no dmg boost ( unlike rage/divine power/way of the staff/wm criticals... the dmg is comparable to a DD, w/o the DD defensive capabilities ), so you're pretty much a waste of buffs from friendly casters ( because this build, unlike other quasiclass, has no self-buffing, and that +20 from magical is from good gmw+song+bless, you need 3 other casters to reach a mediocre ab. Bur tanks should aim at over 100 ab.
On spellcasting: a waste. Abysmal charisma, no epic-LL spell focus and no LL spell penetration ( supposing you're going to read a sp book ): your spells will be evaded or will do half dmg the whole time. 10 sorc lvls and low cha mean very few slots as well, so you'll rely on gear, but a tank can't afford as many bonus spell slots as a caster
I Don't understand why you point out the free divine might/shield on fallen angel variation: you can't use them w/o innate turn undead feat. FA is a bad choice because that wisdom is useless; you get just a +2 cha and fly over sands, from a ur race. The resting part in the introduction is silly as well. Tanks rarely rests, and a caster should be able to do most LL runs resting 4-6 times at best; i know i've done db resting 2 times, and for comparison i just ended a minauron run resting 3 times, with a sorc; how many times you're going to rest with 5/day hellballs as your only decent spell? ( just for the KD effect actually, the dmg in LL is ridiculous )
All being said, sry for being rude but seeing people wasting time on a bad build makes me feel bad for them, when I know their shouts will be ignored; and posting this sort of builds on the board, listing only pro's and never con's might confuse newbies who can think ''oooh, a big dragon who casts hellballs and kill enemies with big bad axe sad spear''
Originality award but it doesn't work
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Post by ladyq on Jul 31, 2007 3:34:26 GMT
I just feel you get the most out of a 19/20/1 build if you want dragonform and 'some' melee capability. the only real melee ability of a build like this is to hit on a monster that is already occupied (attacking) someone else..or go 1 on 1 against a single mob.. the AC obtained from wearing medium and maxing dex won't prevent you from getting hit by mobs... (no concealment, imp. expertise), so in this case the DR from heavy equipment is especially important to a build that gets no concealment (displacement will last painfully short on this), as is any form of tower/large shield Like theRaj said above you'll run into a lot of problems getting the most out of BFM spells with a build like this. It is impairative to maximize your spell ability for a caster build to really get anywhere on HG. I once felt that generalized builds were really cool and neat to try, but the thing is when you're in a party there's always someone else who can do a particular thing very well. I had a high hitpoint cleric that sacraficed a lot of wisdom to pump up her CON (too used to pvp servers hehe) and thought that I could simply rely on EQs and the odd epic spell to get me by...its not really the case at all. The standard cheese cleric build on here just squashes my build like a bug I'm sorry to say but in a party when someone invites a BFM immediately they will want to see endless FBs and meteors doing decent dmg. Don't be surprised if people get really irritated at a bfm choosing to melee instead of casting..they are very powerful classes but like palemasters you have to pick your spots and maximize what the build is intended to be good at.
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Post by chainlink on Jul 31, 2007 7:58:09 GMT
I always get a bit scared when somebody says a build will be "Fun to play", who's having the fun you or the party you're with? If its not the party I can assure you it won't be fun the second time you roll it out.
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