Caster Cleric - what am I doing wrong?

[Grogbot]

I've got a caster cleric build that found out the hard way at Dachy's house that AC doesn't come easy to this toon.

Saving points for Tumble would have given me 7 or 8 more AC, but what can a poor cleric do to get his armour class up?

Level 40, AC 92 with Immo gear, +10 shield & boots.

Even an extra 10 AC from +15 boots/shield is only 102, and maxing tumble would have made it 110.

Is there anything else I can do? As a cleric conceal is not an option, is it? Any DR options?

Grog the squishy

[bort]

For a fresh immortal caster cleric you can hope for up to 116 AC (-1 if large).

AC:
10
+ 8 Heavy Armor Base : 18
+ 15 Immo Plate bonus : 33
+ 1 DEX bonus (requires 12 dex; including gear boosts) : 34
+ 3 Tower Shield : 37
+ 13 UR Tower Shield bonus : 50
+ 20 dodge ac (any combination of haste(4), undeath's eternal foe/bardsong/epic mage armor from immortal crown, and the actual dodge ac of the boots) : 70
+ 16 UR amulet : 86
+ 16 UR Deflection Item (helm, cloak, gloves or belt) : 102
+ 2 Armor Skin : 104
+ 8 Tumble AC bonus (requires 40 tumble) : 112
+ 4 Girding of the Faithful (if you or someone in your party has it) = 116

Without the URs, you're probably looking at around 109 before girding provided you can max out your dodge ac.

There is an item available in one of the legendary areas of the mod which grants (preLL casterlevel)% conceal for good aligned clerics (thanks Yomi).

As for damage reduction you want to aim for at least:
20/- to elements (available via rares or the set drop +10 boots in a pre-immortal area);
20/- to all physical types if possible (immo gear has some on);
Roughly 45% physical immunity from Immortal plate, bracer slot and cloak slot if possible;
and between 5/- and 15/- resist to exotics too (or more with the epic cleric spell; Aegis).

For the maze in particular, having as much immunity and resistance to physical and magical damage as you can get your hands on is the most important thing.
Evasion and good reflex saves help.

Putting some points into parry should help reduce the damage from criticals (even without being in Parry mode).

Making use of your clerical Regeneration (both normal and monstrous) plus the regeneration granted by healing circle (based off your heal skill) should help keep you on your feet.

A friendly mage or druid to give you some conceal doesn't hurt either (displacement or mass camouflage respectively).
Even 25% conceal from a Sheath of Stealth (casts Improved Invis) is better than nothing.

[chainlink]

If you took no tumble at all you will always be a step behind a standard cheese cleric as -8 ac will effectively get you hit 1-2 times more per attack sequence. when you're surrounded thats potentially a lot of hits.

[Grogbot]

Ok, so filling up my slots with what gear I have I can get to 99 AC, plus the resistances and immunities.

But as a CASTER cleric, I now have no gear giving me bonus spells.

Is this the life I have chosen? Survive with gear or cast with gear but not both?

Seems arcane users and their yummy EV have the better of it ...

[bort]

As Archmage once (wisely) said (paraphrasing);
"It's no use having a million spells if you're not alive to cast them."

I consider balancing defenses and spell slots one of the challenges of playing a caster on Higher Ground. You have to find the balance point between offense (spell slots) and defense that works for you. I usually go for Staff, belt and sometimes boots as spellslot gear and amulet too if I can get the physical resist I usually get from an amulet I have from elsewhere. Everything else is purely defensive gear (for Sorc however there's the 'thid helm, for Wiz there's the bracers and for bard there's there's a 'thid helm).

I would equip an arcane caster with the same amount of defensive gear as a divine caster, especially given the recent change to how mob criticals work on the server; as they DO still get hit (especially at lower levels).

Couple of buffs I forgot to mention which should help allieviate the need for certain gear in some areas (sorry I forgot to mention earlier):

"Resist Elements:
at casterlevel 21 and up, adds 4/- resistance to elements plus 4/- for every focus in Abjuration, up to 20/- with Legendary Spell Focus, with no damage absorption limit

"Endure Elements:
at casterlevel 21 and up, ads 1% immunity to elemental damage per 6 casterlevels, to a maximum of 10% at casterlevel 60"

Also, depending what domains you chose, you may have access to Energy Buffer, which will soak up some elemental damage too.

"Energy Buffer:
at casterlevel 20 the damage absorbtion limit increases from 60 to 25pts of damage per casterlevel
at casterlevel 40 the damage absorbtion limit increases to 25pts of damage per pre-legendary casterlevel and 100pts of damage per every legendary casterlevel
the resistance increases from 40/- to 40 + 1/legendary casterlevel, capped at 60/- at casterlevel 60"

Battletide and prayer will also lower the AB of mobs around you; which should help you survive.
Aid and Divine Power are useful for a few temporary hitpoints before you wade into battle.
Entropic shield is good for concealment vs. missile attacks (no good in maze, but useful elsewhere).

As i hinted at earlier, you'll have an easier time if certain other classes are in your party:
Bard (for the boost to dodge AC with Bard Song if yours isn't already maxed out) and Curse Song to lower the enemy's AB. -Caster bards also tend to cast healing circle which has a double benefit in the maze of healing party members and hurting the guardians (provided they can beat the SR check).
Anyone who can (and will) cast either Displacement/Mass Camo or even Improved Invis on you. The Druid concealment epic spell is nice too; but the duration (last time I played one) was a little short for my taste.
As with bard's curse song, a shifter's Harpy Curse or a Pale Master's Lichsong should also help.

[chainlink]

My double demi cleric has an unbuffed ac of 112 and wears all Tia gear except the ring (as that gives me too many spell slots), Smouldering Carapace BUR armor, Manacles of Mephistopholes BUR gloves, Helm of Inspiration BUR and either the Signet of the Nine or Styxwalkers Asmodeus artifacts. I swap in UR and BUR rings as necessary.
I have a suspicion that 104 ac would get me a good hard kicking on a lot of Hells runs causing me to become a GS/heal bot rather than opening up with implosions when I feel like it.
In answer to what are you doing wrong I'd have to say not maxing tumble at level 40 for 8 ac or at least cross classing it to 30 by 60 for 6 ac. I hope you were able to max discipline at 40 or you're going to have a really bad time once you get to Phlegthoras and deeper.

[Grogbot]

Thanks Bort (for all posts)

I had the cleric self buffing spells all sorted. 'Cept after you die, .... all [non epic] buffs are gone. As the party said "you're dieing so often you'll get floor tile tatoos"

Yeah the Dachy run was kinda caster lite. STR Tanks, AAs, squishies [but PROPS my friends]

I'm still wearing "kick me I'm a NOOB" sign post immo, with casters, thanks for the input, especially round the balance dilemna

Edit - removed Aussie lingo, rephrased for reading

[legendoftime]

Hi..Trickery domain gives you improved invis spell

"I hope you were able to max discipline at 40 or you're going to have a really bad time once you get to Phlegthoras and deeper. " is this because of disarm or knockdown or both? o.0

[bort]

legendoftime said:

"I hope you were able to max discipline at 40 or you're going to have a really bad time once you get to Phlegthoras and deeper. " is this because of disarm or knockdown or both? o.0

Worse.

[Yomi]

I'd definitely recommend maxing discipline and tumble. Once you get Illithid tag, using Penumbrium + Pentavite should give you 117 AC assuming you splashed 40 tumble and using a +15 amulet such as the Dachy one. At level 50 you can switch to UR plate such as Thokul or Horlann or Shaamros. Penumbrium and Shaamros have implode immunity also which is great in desert and Ssith. A +16 amulet would get you one more AC. My clerics all have girding, so they usually run around at 121 AC.

The item bort mentions grants conceal of 1% per pre-LL cleric level, so it's 38-40% -- I highly recommend always taking advantage of this since it makes a large difference in how many hits you'll take, especially when flatfooted. Before you get this item, the sheath will work even though it's only 25%. Best would be displacement from a mage or bard, or mass camo from a druid.

Definitely take advantage of your buffs such as UEF, regen, monst regen, endure elements, resist elements (if you have abjuration it's 16/- to all elements), energy buffer, stoneskin, divine power, and entropic shield, among others. Use Aegis when needed if you have it (it makes a ton of difference in Ssithrak for instance), though I recommend casting it when the fight starts so you don't waste a chunk of its duration sitting around waiting for the party to get ready. You know your UEF spell will grant a ton of dodge, right? That will turn your +10 boots into effectively +16. UEF is one of the best non-epic buffs in the game -- always use it.

Like all builds, having 10/- or more to exotics and 10/- or more to physical as well as 25-45% damage immunity is really something you should have. If you don't have equipment with elemental DR on it, definitely cast resist elements on yourself. I'd recommend Ecto Weave or Parsons for a cloak, as they'll cover exotics as well as give 10% DI. Ecto also gives Harm and WoF immunity. 20/- to physical is great but it's generally hard to get, 10/- is absolute minimum, 15/- is good. Ideally you'll have 50% physical immunity from gear once you hit level 50 (30% from UR heavy armor, 10% from gloves such as clasps of the forewarned, 10% from cloak). It looks like my cleric decided on bio bracers to get DR 15/- to all physical and +10 to 3 stats at the cost of 10%.

On my toon, it looks like I'm using caster gear on boots, belt, amulet, and staff. I'd sacrifice boots if you have to to survive, and amulet. An adaptation amulet will help free up a ring slot when in Ssithrak, which is an excellent choice for survival in my opinion, as being able to use a crackleshard + mord ring is big and definitely worth the loss of two implodes.

[cathedralmaster]

I personally perfer to use the Ultra-rare Ixityl's Will on my cleric for fairly obvious reasons:

www.hgwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Ixityl%27s_Will

You might also want to consider your choice of domains as that's often a problem with caster clerics.

[Ironfang]

There is an item available in one of the legendary areas of the mod which grants between 40 and 50% conceal for good aligned clerics

There aren't going to be as many good aligned Clerics hanging around unfortunately if they travel to all areas of the mod now.

My Caster Cleric used to run around with about 118 AC before demi (no girding), you can also look at using robes and achieving the same AC eventually but at the cost of DR and other immunities on shields.

[Grogbot]

cathedralmaster said:

You might also want to consider your choice of domains as that's often a problem with caster clerics.

Oh yeah Cath I got that message for sure. Pre-immo (pre-drow?) Sun and Air were a blast - the lightning spells and extra searing lights made him so fun to play, especially emp/max versions. "Move over Sorcs, blaster-cleric is here". Even the immo fight itself was fun as the laser-beam-machine.

But the "Immune to L3 and below" - first really noticeable on the hellforge - bites. Now its a whole new world. When I rebuild him, or hold on till reincarnate, Fire and probably Magic are the go (wall, stoneskin, energy buffer).

Of course the other drama is that he is an off the shelf subby, so high WIS came at the cost of INT, and thus he has no skills. And it is an oldddddddd toon - predated the change to heal skill. And cleric epics. He qualifies for 2 (3 with a book) but I haven't found any yet.

[Not as old as my poor gnomish Wizard who is immo now but has no quest rings, but close]

Thanks for the tips.

[chainlink]

cathedralmaster said:

I personally perfer to use the Ultra-rare Ixityl's Will on my cleric for fairly obvious reasons:

www.hgwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Ixityl%27s_Will

You might also want to consider your choice of domains as that's often a problem with caster clerics.

I'd go as far as to say that Ixityl's will is a must have in certain areas only swapping for the Pentevite shield in a couple of LL places.
To make a really good cleric I'd say you need Fallen Angel (or prefferably Half-Celestial) as both of these subbys make building them a load less painful. These days Fallen Angel is relatively easy to pick up but Half-Celestial is still at the top of a lot of folks wants list due to the extreme flexibility this subby gives.

[bort]

If it's just for the Discipline boost, yes it's handy, but I managed to get +45 discipline from gear on my cleric whilst wearing the Pentavite Sheild therefore giving me 122 AC with girding, so I wouldn't say it's essential..

Gear is currently:
Staff of the Axerian Grandmaster, Carapace of Smoldering Stone, Pentavite Shield, Scion of Sorcere (+15 disc), Touch of Mockery (+10 disc), Ectoplasmic weave, Boots of the Axerian Grandmaster (+10 disc), Amulet of the Axerian Grandmaster (+10 disc), Belt of the Axerian Grandmaster.

If the Belt of the Axerian Grandmaster had the discipline boost of the UR cleric belt maxing discipline would be a doddle. Back to the spell slots vs. defense again

The down side to this set-up is lack of elemental resist; though with no parry getting hit much in hell spells death pretty fast with or without it; so I generally don't get too near to anything unless I'm going to implode it, or there's a meatshield between me and it.