Tumble?

[uncanny]

I've been thinking about this awhile now, and possibly may have
asked it before.

If I understand correctly, dodge bonus - which I think tumble is classed as being - is lost when flatfooted, as well as for an opponent you're not currently attacking. That is to say, if you're attacking mobmember 1, mobmembers 2 to * ignore the tumble AC; while mobmember 1 must overcome it.

If that's correct, then is tumble ac really worth counting on with a build, beyond the obligatory 15 to avoid Attack of Opportunity?

[bort]

uncanny said:

I've been thinking about this awhile now, and possibly may have
asked it before.

If I understand correctly, dodge bonus - which I think tumble is classed as being - is lost when flatfooted, as well as for an opponent you're not currently attacking. That is to say, if you're attacking mobmember 1, mobmembers 2 to * ignore the tumble AC; while mobmember 1 must overcome it.

If that's correct, then is tumble ac really worth counting on with a build, beyond the obligatory 15 to avoid Attack of Opportunity?

Tumble AC is not Dodge AC and is therefore not counted in the +20 dodge ac cap.
Tumble gives up to 12 AC at 60 ranks, which in most people's opinion at least, is worth having if you have the choice.
Even 8 AC from 40 tumble is attractive.

You do lose your tumble AC when flatfooted, but I don't know how flanking affects it.
I'd still take it, even if it was only affective for 1 on 1.

Here's what the wiki has to say about it:

# Since the DC is fixed, a tumble skill of 14 is sufficient to avoid all attacks of opportunity provoked by moving through combat. However, relying on this bare minimum is not advised since a character may want heavier armor at some point (increasing the armor check penalty), and a character could be hit by skill-reducing effects (e.g., blind, curse, Curse Song, Level Drain).
# The spring attack feat is effectively redundant as long as a tumble skill of 14 is maintained.
# The mobility feat's usefulness is reduced—but not eliminated—by taking ranks in tumble, since some attacks of opportunity can be avoided.
# A character with a high tumble skill may want additional ranks in tumble solely for the AC bonus.
# An armor check penalty does not lower the AC bonus gained from Tumble.
# The armor class bonus from tumble is often called "dodge", but it is actually one of the uncapped other sources of AC.
# The AC from Tumble is lost when flat-footed.

Also, don't forget that scripted penalties, such as those in the hells will lower your Tumble skill (affecting your skill at avoiding AoOs, but not the AC gained).

[chainlink]

You would be foolish to miss out on the 6, 8 or 12 ac gained from maxing tumble as if you think about it from an attack point of view that's 1-2 attacks a round that will be missing you with a 5 decrease or 1-3 attacks with a 3 decrease per attack. Anything that causes attacks that would have hit to miss must be considered a good thing.

[Raj]

while flanked you keep all the dodge and tumble ac; if you're not a DD, the monsters that are flanking you receive a +2 to their attack roll btw (not so horrible), but you're not flatfooted.

[uncanny]

bort said:

Tumble AC is not Dodge AC and is therefore not counted in the +20 dodge ac cap.

Yep, this was one I knew (thanks for confirming tho). The thing that concerned me was how it got treated in a mob..

Didn't think about scripted penalties though, which makes a good point for more tumble to keep saving on AoO DC's.

Thanks both bort and chainlink for the feedback!