No I like the change a lot. Not a big increase in power but the build is less wasteful that way since the odd con point only helps you against a small number of hells checks. Having ESF Listen, at the moment, is the more important of the skills to round off....maybe ESF Intimidate as well but for now i'll leave it as Listen. It is nice to have mighty rage sooner, but I think the player will be fine.
Just another note you don't want to dip below 20 Base Con before level 40. You're going to want close to 1400 hp in the end. I only deferred the single con point because it doesn't add to the hp total in the end (actually you lose a couple of points because of the way hp is calculated in LL levels but that's not a big deal, 40 for ever 2 con + 1 hp for every remaining LL level). It is not ok to start with 19 and just wait till you con gets to 21. That would seriously impact the playability of the character.
I think I'm being stupid, but I can't build this as listed.
I have enough skill points for two of Listen, UMD or Tumble when I get to rogue at level 21, but not all three.
My abilities and stats are exactly as specified in the build for level 20. Then, for 21, you state "Maximize Tumble, Use Magic Device, Craft Weapon, Intimidate, Listen, Save the rest". Well, there isn't anything to save, and I'm around 24 points short. I thought I'd screwed up so I reincarnated, but with exactly the same results.
I would have enough points if my int was 14, but the subrace dropped that to 12 (as expected). I'm wondering if something changed in how subraces get applied since this build was posted?
So I've rebuilt it without listen, but I'm not sure if that's the right decision (perhaps I should have rebuilt without UMD instead?) as I don't really know much about the server to decide.
I have a week to do it over, so any replies appreciated.
You get an infusion of skill points at level 41 and onwards (1 per level I think if control class barbarian). I might have placed listen too soon on the build. I'll double check on dev to see what you ultimately end up with at level 60.
It does work out in the end, just make sure to save enough points for 43 UMD at level 40 because that is the only skill you're not going to be able to make up in legendary levels. All the others are or will become class skills.
Another Tip for this character if you plan to go to the deep hells with him/her is to use the Intelligence Artifact at level 55. This wil grant you a few more skill points for craft armor, but more importantly will make you confusion immune. Brachina's are a bane to this build since their confusion is a Charisma Check. The Intelligence artifact is the easiest to get and has the added bonus of a domination use per rest. So, you get a pet to fight by your side to boot. If you ever decide to upgrade to a BUR race or get a better artifact, you can always deliberately blow it up and not feel too bad about the loss. Or just keep it as is.
How much of an advantage is Listen though? The description for Listen with respect to concealment is that Listen (60) is equivalent to the Blind-Fight feat, and that they do not stack. Yet you're taking both?
Also, you show craft armour (in your Dev build above) as 13?
Well add your wisdom modifier to the list skill (+4)...that brings you up to 67. Add another +10 from Epic Skill Focus Listen Bringing us up to 77. Then you can get an additional +50 from gear, spells, and bardsong. So, potentially you could have upwards of 110-127 or so depending on where you are and what you're wearing. This will make a large impact on your overall damage output.
Craft Armor is approximately 13 + 7 (from my intelligence modifier). So, To get 1 more point of AC you need to pick up an additional +20 or so from bard song and gear. For how little you actually spend on the skill thats a pretty big payoff.
Aha! So that's where the extra points are coming from. I was maxing Craft Weapon rather than stopping at 13. I got confused because you say to maximize it, and you show it at 23 at the "level 20 stats" section.
Ok, thanks for the clarifications. I can rebuild Hrowf son of Growf now.
One more question: just how important is "iron will" given the prevelance of "mind spell immunity" items. If I don't take Iron will / epic will I can get knockdown/improved knockdown instead. Or does this nerf the build for the harder levels due to issues I'm not aware of?
It just seems odd to be spending two feats on something that doesn't really bring me up to a level that helps much anyway against high will DC I'll be seeing. (very little)+4 is still (very little). I'd be better off knocking them on their arse so they can't do me in the first place.
At least, so it seems to my untrained eye. I'm probably wrong, but I'd appreciate being told where I'm wrong.
In a lot of the 40 and beyond areas of the mod, there are enemies whose mental attacks get around mind immunity gear (yikes!), so that means you can't get away with completely dumping your willsave. I wouldn't try for knockdown though, it's very hard to pull off later on unless you have sickeningly high AB, and unfortunately, this build doesn't get it quite high enough. I would stick to the iron will.
If you switch Level 21 rogue and Level 22 CoT you can gain one more ac when you do a tumble dump, instead of waiting til level 40 to get that extra point of ac. Doesn't really affect the build that much, but is still an option.