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Post by desocupado on Mar 31, 2012 15:34:54 GMT
Well, I've been looking around some build options that should be possible but don't work so well in pratice, here a couple of questions, ideas and suggestions. Feel free do disagree (and fact more insight of these builds would be greatly appreciated) Assassin:Issue: Str build trades way too much AC for some physical damage/resistances.Possible solution: Increase their offensive prowess by giving a small DC bonus if using Str (something like what zen rangers get 1/8 mod or perhaps a static +2) Issue: Assassin is usually deemed inferior to Ranger.Possible solution: Improve their spell casting and/or spell book with more (custom) spells. - Silence as level 2 spell
- Foebane could not cancel mortal strikes against critical vulnerable foes.
- Spells could use Strength/Dexterity (whichever is higher) for DC
- Expeditious retreat (Now called Killer's Agility) could grant them and additional attack per round.
Str Shadowdancer :Issue: Trades a too much AC for some physical damage/resistances. Str Damage output isn't worth the loss of extra attacks from offhandSolution: Make shadow Evade grant some (minor) shield AC if str > dex to make two handed builds viable. Bane KnightIssue: Lack of spell focus feats and overall feat tightnessPossible solution: Either change some of their custom spell to a more favorable school or grant them a few spell focus feats as bonus (evocation is a good choice). Issue: Spell penetration (needs testing, this is based on an opinion from a post)Possible solution: Change the formula (is it required to be based on STR?) Issue: Ony pharlan subrace is really viable for DC-based spells, due Str/Wis/cha spread.Possible solution: Move the +4 CHA bonus they'd get on LL to the moment the qualify for BK. This would allow more liberal race selection when starting from level 1. Theurges without epic spellsIssue: There is no incentive to work on a build without any epic spellsSolution: Use 7/8 (or 13/16) of the main attribute DC modifier on secondary spell book If Wizard and Cleric levels are both less than 25 Life threaderIssue: Spell slot nerf on gear decreased damage output a bit more than desired (according to some players)Solution: Buff the damage formula a bit (from (55 + (drained spell level * 5))% to (64 + (drained spell level * 4))%) FightersIssue: The disarm/kd new feats make their greater feats somewhat obsolete (well the DC for non-pure is too low, and people don't like pure fighter that much)Solution: Change the formula on these feats to depend on Character level instead and limit the amount of uses a bit more. (the next issue) Alternative Solution: Make Fighters with 35 or more class levels (not including LL) get Legendary Disarm/Knockdown for free if they have the corresponding improved version of the feat instead of the Greater Feats. Issue: Greater feats have too limited uses per daySolution: Make the amount of uses relative to fighter levels (not including LL), i.e. a Level 30 Fighter gets 2/3 uses, while a level 40 Fighter could get 5/8. Wisdom-based Slingers More of a discussion at the momentIssue: The reasoning behind using zen archery isn't clear enough.Solution: Make some ammunitions use a wisdom DC formula if that would be better than the current level based formula (this could allow some splashed builds as well). Balance issues: I've been trying to work on either using implosion on 0 SR mobs or make a stun-turner with pharlan, but nothing is too conclusive at the moment. Bard CC Arcane Archer More of a discussion at the momentIssue: The range of curse song/epic spells is awkwardPossible solution: Some sort of arrow attack applying the effects of a curse song. Issue: Bards doesn't get the inflict vulnerabilities like a Sorc/wiz CC AA do Possible solution: Make them inflect there vulnerability (or apply curse song) Balance issues: Bard CC offers a lot of skill points and good skill choices. Bard CC Palemater More of a discussion at the momentIssue: There doesn't seem to be any possibility of something like thatPossible solution: Make a custom item like the Staff of Forsaken Sorcery, perhaps with a custom spell necromancy spell using a song usage like Stillsound does. |
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Post by evilkittenofdoom on Mar 31, 2012 16:24:48 GMT
I must admit that I'm making a 20/20 Theurge, and with the right domains, it becomes not half bad. It will have Illusion/Conjuration/Enchantment, INT as my primary stat. The result is that I have access to UeF, True Ressurection with a Long range, Extended/Empowered Greater Restoration Empowered/Extended Creeping Doom (inflicting 5% Physical Vulnerabilitie per round). Earthquake would do half damage, but it doesn't respect SR, so it's not too bad even at half damage. Destruction does damage anyhow, and it's Divine damage, making it that much more useful. The epics for Arcane, in my opinion, are not worth that exchange.
The exchange in reverse is something I've yet to experiment with, going the same 20/20 and focusing on Wisdom, and thus Cleric DCs, but I expect somewhat similar results.
My point here is that it's largely a playstyle choice at the moment. You can choose to get the epics and forego the higher level spells of one of the two classes, or you can take the pure(r) route and go 17/23, 19/21, etc. and get access to all of the spells from both lists.
Changing their DC calculations as per your suggestion above might make the DCs from both classes a little higher than perhaps is balanced. I'm thinking along the lines of 1/2 WIS Modifier + INT Modifier Wizard spells if INT < WIS and 1/2 INT + WIS modifier for Wizard spells if INT > WIS. Keep in mind this is rough math, and I haven't run all of the numbers. I will run the actual numbers and possibly refine the above formula a bit if it's still too similar.
My personal opinion however on Theurges is that Greater Ruin should take into account both Cleric and Wizard levels combined (-1 as per the rest of their spells) for the DC, and I'd say that about any of the other caster classes.
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Post by evilkittenofdoom on Mar 31, 2012 17:38:33 GMT
After doing some more of the math in my head, as well as considering what DCs are actually useful and feasible, I'm coming to the conclusion that trying to even out the DC would make the class more powerful that most others short of not having the epics.
Consider this - with your proposed method, at a 64 Casting Stat (27 Modifier), you'd be giving the opposing class a 25 at the rate of 9/10 or a 23 at the rate of 7/8. The 23 isn't too unreasonable, as the DCs become moderately useful, but even so, having viable DCs from both lists is a bit much from a balance perspective.
If you'll humor me for a moment, look at things this way, and it's what changed my mind originally about a Theurge and how useful it really was : A INT based Theurge, 20/20, Conj/Enchant/Illusion - Plant and Sun Domains.
I cast all of my wizard spells as per normal for those foci. From my cleric list, I have many spells with no saves that complement that list. Greater Restoration being the big one, but we can toss in Searing Light (CLd3 Divine Damage), Creeping Doom inflicting 5% vulnerability per round, DEstruction for damage with no save, Earthquake which bypasses SR(albeit at half damage more than likely), Prayer and Battletide for dropping the saves of enemies, and True REssurection with the maximum range possible. Not to mention that Conj Foci boosts a huge amount of the cleric buffs, and Enchantment gives a nice +14 GMW. On top of all that, you can use any buffs that are in both lists from the cleric list to free up space for the spells that your INT actually benefits.
In reverse, using Wisdom as your primary stat you gain access to a very different set of buffs to shift from your WIS benefitting spells over to the support list. You'd probably change the Foci to Evo/Necro/Illusion, with Plant/Evil domains for Creeping Doom and Enervation possibly Conj. Suddenly you have access to Mords, BBoD with a decent duration, Time Stop, IGMS, GV for repositioning, Ice Storm, the obvious EV, Spell Mantles, CL 41+ Mind Blank / Remove Curse from this list, Energy Buffer, FoD, Horrids at 1/2 damage (But it's dessicating, making it still exceptionally useful even at 1/2) Bigby 9, and Gate : Translocation if you choose the Conj route.
You tell me that that kind of accessible list isn't too bad, and is fairly worth the trade off for 1/day (2 in Paragon) epics. Oh, and as a CC wizard, you also gain Polymathy if I'm not mistaken, so that's one Paragon spell of your choice.
After considering a lot of things, I'm not sure I can support that argument here. I see where you're coming from, as I once thought the same way, but when it was explained to me how to really use it well, it became apparant of how powerful it really is when used properly. It lacks AoE firepower at times, and it lacks some other things that pure casters get, but the trade is the beautiful combination of both spell lists that tend to compliment each other so well.
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Post by desocupado on Mar 31, 2012 18:32:45 GMT
After doing some more of the math in my head, as well as considering what DCs are actually useful and feasible, I'm coming to the conclusion that trying to even out the DC would make the class more powerful that most others short of not having the epics. Consider this - with your proposed method, at a 64 Casting Stat (27 Modifier), you'd be giving the opposing class a 25 at the rate of 9/10 or a 23 at the rate of 7/8. The 23 isn't too unreasonable, as the DCs become moderately useful, but even so, having viable DCs from both lists is a bit much from a balance perspective. If you'll humor me for a moment, look at things this way, and it's what changed my mind originally about a Theurge and how useful it really was : A INT based Theurge, 20/20, Conj/Enchant/Illusion - Plant and Sun Domains. I cast all of my wizard spells as per normal for those foci. From my cleric list, I have many spells with no saves that complement that list. Greater Restoration being the big one, but we can toss in Searing Light (CLd3 Divine Damage), Creeping Doom inflicting 5% vulnerability per round, DEstruction for damage with no save, Earthquake which bypasses SR(albeit at half damage more than likely), Prayer and Battletide for dropping the saves of enemies, and True REssurection with the maximum range possible. Not to mention that Conj Foci boosts a huge amount of the cleric buffs, and Enchantment gives a nice +14 GMW. On top of all that, you can use any buffs that are in both lists from the cleric list to free up space for the spells that your INT actually benefits. In reverse, using Wisdom as your primary stat you gain access to a very different set of buffs to shift from your WIS benefitting spells over to the support list. You'd probably change the Foci to Evo/Necro/Illusion, with Plant/Evil domains for Creeping Doom and Enervation possibly Conj. Suddenly you have access to Mords, BBoD with a decent duration, Time Stop, IGMS, GV for repositioning, Ice Storm, the obvious EV, Spell Mantles, CL 41+ Mind Blank / Remove Curse from this list, Energy Buffer, FoD, Horrids at 1/2 damage (But it's dessicating, making it still exceptionally useful even at 1/2) Bigby 9, and Gate : Translocation if you choose the Conj route. You tell me that that kind of accessible list isn't too bad, and is fairly worth the trade off for 1/day (2 in Paragon) epics. Oh, and as a CC wizard, you also gain Polymathy if I'm not mistaken, so that's one Paragon spell of your choice. After considering a lot of things, I'm not sure I can support that argument here. I see where you're coming from, as I once thought the same way, but when it was explained to me how to really use it well, it became apparant of how powerful it really is when used properly. It lacks AoE firepower at times, and it lacks some other things that pure casters get, but the trade is the beautiful combination of both spell lists that tend to compliment each other so well. Perhaps Polymath should be blocked as well (by requiring Wizard 25 - affecting the Wiz CC staffmasters). Overall theurge metabuilding has been discussed hereWell, a W23/C17 theurge has 5 less feats against a Pure wizard, has pretty bad saves and can't use most bioware epics (and can't really afford feats for then). Reggardless, probably splashing monk with wisdom based would make more sense, in order to use the low range debuffs from cleric with decent ac. Truth be told, the Arcane evocation + Implosion might be the scariest thing. This DC, was a first attempt, 7/8, i.e. -4 DC is roughly the same relative penalty a caster gets while wearing simbuls augmenter (GSF in all x LSF in the choosen school). In fact since one can reach int/wis 78 (with base 24 +16/gear +4/demi +2/paragon +2/arty +20/level +10/feats), it becomes a -5 difference. One thing you might have not considered is that neither cleric or wizard have that much free time during combat, i.e. they always have something to cast from their spellbooks. That and using lower DC spells take more time (and slots) than usual. Well this idea was more for fun and diversity of builds. |
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Post by pete on Mar 31, 2012 20:08:48 GMT
I consider str assassins equal to dex ones (dex assassins damage is pathetic)
but i consider assassins inferior to other tank classes, and i don't just mean rangers, i benched mine at mala just because my other tanks were more useful
id add more damage to both sides, maby assassin acid buff add more dice when cast on self or a buff that gives them a more powerful damage (negative jumps to mind, or internal)
more spells
if heartbane worked off the same DC as their mortal strike that would be nice (it would be just like MS but at a range, checking for SR and using slots)
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Post by jeanhelixü on Mar 31, 2012 20:15:03 GMT
I consider str assassins equal to dex ones (dex assassins damage is pathetic) but i consider assassins inferior to other tank classes, and i don't just mean rangers, i benched mine at mala just because my other tanks were more useful id add more damage to both sides, maby assassin acid buff add more dice when cast on self or a buff that gives them a more powerful damage (negative jumps to mind, or internal) more spells if heartbane worked off the same DC as their mortal strike that would be nice (it would be just like MS but at a range, checking for SR and using slots) While I tend to agree that strength and dex assassins both are a bit subpar, I don't really understand how heartbane having the same DC as mortal strike would help at all? It has the same immunity check as mortal strike anyways, and you can mortal strike infinite times per day while your spell slots are very limited on assassin. Though perhaps instead heartbane cast by assassin could provide a short buff to mortal strike dc like foebane does for rangers. |
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Post by desocupado on Mar 31, 2012 20:20:21 GMT
I consider str assassins equal to dex ones (dex assassins damage is pathetic) but i consider assassins inferior to other tank classes, and i don't just mean rangers, i benched mine at mala just because my other tanks were more useful id add more damage to both sides, maby assassin acid buff add more dice when cast on self or a buff that gives them a more powerful damage (negative jumps to mind, or internal) more spells if heartbane worked off the same DC as their mortal strike that would be nice (it would be just like MS but at a range, checking for SR and using slots) While I tend to agree that strength and dex assassins both are a bit subpar, I don't really understand how heartbane having the same DC as mortal strike would help at all? It has the same immunity check as mortal strike anyways, and you can mortal strike infinite times per day while your spell slots are very limited on assassin. Though perhaps instead heartbane cast by assassin could provide a short buff to mortal strike dc like foebane does for rangers. Assassin's foebane > ranger's foe bane - It allows you to instant kill lots of targets a Ranger can't. Now it only needed a few more castings. |
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Post by jeanhelixü on Mar 31, 2012 20:27:10 GMT
Ranger's Invis Purge -8% conceal.
Ranger's called shot does not need a critical roll to insta.
Ranger's called shot also drops con by 6 on successful save.
Ranger has minishunt.
Ranger has +positive damage for itself.
Ranger has self cast FoM.
Ranger has wisdom ac.
Ranger has crit immunity if strength.
Ranger has Bladethirst for +14 gmw and keen.
Ranger has Improved Evasion.
Ranger gets dual wield feats for free.
Assassin has caustic weapon.
Assassin can insta death magic vulnerable targets.
Assassin can get multiple save checks a round for mortal strike.
Ranger is pretty much superior. Though I'll grant that having to spam !cs target macro repeatedly is troublesome.
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Post by desocupado on Mar 31, 2012 20:43:09 GMT
Ranger's Invis Purge -8% conceal. Ranger's called shot does not need a critical roll to insta. Ranger's called shot also drops con by 6 on successful save. Ranger has minishunt. Ranger has +positive damage for itself. Ranger has self cast FoM. Ranger has wisdom ac. Ranger has crit immunity if strength. Ranger has Bladethirst for +14 gmw and keen. Ranger has Improved Evasion. Ranger gets dual wield feats for free. Assassin has caustic weapon. Assassin can insta death magic vulnerable targets. Assassin can get multiple save checks a round for mortal strike. Ranger is pretty much superior. Though I'll grant that having to spam !cs target macro repeatedly is troublesome. There are a few other goodies: Assassin can use UMD and Bluff Assassin has more 2 more skill points per level Assassin can (and must) splash 2 classes (the best being monk and black guard) Assassin's Mortal strike added is equal to the Assassin's level, plus legendary levels if the characters control class is Assassin, plus the character's Strength modifier. Assassin can cast Ghostly Visage, Wrack, Expeditious Retreat. Perhaps the critical roll should increase the DC of mortal strike attempt instead of being a requirement to roll. Or even use dex/str mod for all spells. But this might be a discussion better suited for another thread. |
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Post by jeanhelixü on Mar 31, 2012 20:49:10 GMT
Expeditious retreat at CL50 is incredibly inferior to CL60 FoM. In most cases you'd use a CL45 FoM augment instead.
Wrack you can only use on no SR mobs since you only have 50 spell pen, and I can't think of any no SR mobs you will hit but cannot insta.
Penetrating strike is a separate damage packet and so is usually soaked or resisted.
Access to UMD and the extra skill points is admittedly a plus I overlooked though, but still isn't enough.
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Post by pete on Mar 31, 2012 20:50:19 GMT
i just meant it might be a useful niche to give them their MS ability at a range (maby a death magic spell too)
but it wast a main point, it would add a bit of flavor, but little power
I'm just not sure what to give them to add to power without stepping on the toes of other tanks and keeping with their theme
i doubt DC upping is the way to go, i find my DC is enough with the 1/round limit anyway
maby a spell "mark" that selects that monster as the assassin's mark, giving them bonuses against it, like damage, crit multiplier and AB (not necessarily DC as it might be nice to mark bosses), i suggest a spell to limit the number of times it can be used and only allow one mark at a time (probably with a cooldown timer)
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Post by desocupado on Mar 31, 2012 20:55:01 GMT
Expeditious retreat at CL50 is incredibly inferior to CL60 FoM. In most cases you'd use a CL45 FoM augment instead. Wrack you can only use on no SR mobs since you only have 50 spell pen, and I can't think of any no SR mobs you will hit but cannot insta. Penetrating strike is a separate damage packet and so is usually soaked or resisted. Access to UMD and the extra skill points is admittedly a plus I overlooked though, but still isn't enough. Good points I can't disagree on their lackluster features, tough Assassin's wrack ignores SR, but does 66% effect (still handy for bosses) Well, perhaps this post - Quality of Life changes for Assassin should be discussed further. |
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Post by KnightErrant on Mar 31, 2012 22:21:01 GMT
A few off the top of my head...
Rangers get tier one AB.
Rangers get free +4 Con
Rangers can CS on offhand hits
Rangers get Vampiric Regeneration...I know it's a fairly weak ability but still sounds more like a "assassin-y" ability than a Ranger one...IMHO.
Rangers have oodles of class specific gear.
Ranger spells are never disabled because of your alignment.
Neither Parry or Discipline are Assassin skills...so unless you use Half Moly or are a Dwarf Assassin your gonna love stuff like Ichors, Balors and CS archers.
.02
KE.
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Post by Shakua on Apr 1, 2012 0:14:19 GMT
No mark systems please. Anything 4th edition specific would tarnish my enjoyment here.
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Post by Acaos on Apr 1, 2012 3:09:02 GMT
No mark systems please. Anything 4th edition specific would tarnish my enjoyment here. Called Shot is basically a mark system.  We do have a couple of mark-type mechanics slated, but nothing so extensive as 4E. For example, Assay Resistance will increase your SP against one target but decrease it against others. Acaos |
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