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Post by uncanny on Jan 16, 2012 18:06:13 GMT
People are obsessed with optimizing their characters? I think that is it. The actual power difference, in most cases, is a single AB or DC and a feat or two. BUR races sell for large amounts of gold because they difficult to obtain. People don't need the best race for a given build, but they do WANT the best race possible. Even if that only means a minor upgrade. Obviously that desire trumps the desire for a lot of gold. in my case Kolyrut is virtually useless to me so 2 billion gold is MUCH more valuable to me. From a drop rate though is what Enius is talking about here: if, as you say, it's really not much difference, surely the drop rate should increase to show. Economic value only works when it's something someone wants as well. Why is it so highly demanded then if it's not really so much of a difference? I have some trouble accepting that it's just perception driving the cost and drop rate.
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Post by KnightErrant on Jan 16, 2012 18:14:09 GMT
If UR subbies are not greatly inferior to BUR subbies, then why should the price of BUR subbies be 4000% - 12000% more that UR ones!?? This is currently the case, because of our drop rate change. We cannot argue it both ways. Which is it? Are BUR subbies 4000% - 12000% better/more valuable that UR ones or not? In my case UR subbies sell for so little because you get 1 gp if you mass sell them...so before the bulk-sell confirm I take them out and sell them for 15-40 million in the Wyrm...my thinking was it's easy for a newer player to get that much by level 50 and I make some extra forging cash... Really looking forward to the rants a year from now when people are going on about how they can't go on Hell runs cause they don't have XR subbies... KE.
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Post by Enius the White on Jan 16, 2012 18:14:42 GMT
Tyranlthixis, the extreme price gradient is not caused by an irrational obsession thing. The price gradient is caused by the drop rate that was drastically reduced specifically to raise BUR sub prices.
The question is should it be? Your answer appears to be: "BUR subbies should not be worth 4000% - 12000% more that UR ones."
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Post by Yojimbo on Jan 16, 2012 18:29:27 GMT
Pokemon syndrome, Completionist, and Perfectionist mentalities combined with the false notion that the boost in power is so vast creates an exaggerated demand for the sub races. I do think that the drop rate is below where it belongs but just a hair I feel that a full run from Tia to Nessus should always end up with 1-2 BUR books at minimum. The current rate seems to be more like 1-3 for every 2 complete runs of Tia - Nessus. It is hard for me to say figures more precisely as I am giving rough guesses based off many runs to various Hell levels mostly untagged runs in Tia through Mala. We should be seeing an increase in loot since now Rogues can pop loot with an auto TS and Bards still have TS but beyond more additional garbage I haven't seen a noticeable increase.
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Post by Raj on Jan 16, 2012 18:44:41 GMT
When a wis/cha/str artifact ends in auction chests it never goes for less than 2 billions, usually 3, and it provides a single point of dc/ab to a single toon. A BUR book provides that and more, to how many toons you wish, yet some people find it unfair such high prices. Weird.
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Post by madzapper on Jan 16, 2012 20:06:30 GMT
UR races are totally fine in Hells, funny thing about your example is that one guy in my latest group of regulars just reached demigod ( and Ely/Abo tags, and is tagging for the next prince fight ) with a FA cleric after having played here for a bit more than one month, and never felt like been dragged. One comment I have about this is that while not terribly difficult to get around, new players cannot start with UR subraces anymore. They have to travel to level 50 first and reincarnate. New users don't get the +5, but probably the +2 from Svirfneblin or Dryadkin and no walk on sand so their gear will be harder to match up while trying to slog through Desert. What do you all say to the newcomer that's wanting to build an Assassin, Rogue, Fighter or something not on the "I can easily farm as soon as I hit level 50" list? Or is it common that they DO farm a lot in Desert, Toyshop, Myco, Uro, etc. In other words, I love the suggestions because I mostly play casters, however, not all of the new people I play with play casters at all. That being said, my first looting toon was a Thri-kreen Dex-based Monk/Rogue/Paladin. with high appraise, search, open locks, etc.. but it has limited use. Deepbats is as far as I went and I used it to build up some money to buy other subraces. Of course Thri-kreen isn't an option for brand new players anymore. I eventually reincarnated to strength pixie and think the toon is perfect for what it does now. My tip if you do this - try to get 20-30 hide/move silent on whatever it is and make sure you have tons of search, appraise, open locks, and disable traps and can care less about lore. Most importantly: What is the route that people think new players should be taking to get their BUR subrace (supposing they should even worry about it)? For example: 1) Play what you want until level 40 2) Reincarnate to a looting caster (if this isn't what you were already playing). 3) Level to level 50 using myco/desert/fey (also feel free to loot all the way to deepbats and back) 4) Begin your looting to mass your billions and trade items. 5a) Keep looting till you can buy whatever BUR subrace you want and have reached level 60. I recommend Undying so you can build almost whatever and reincarnate to whatever at level 40. Afterwards, start real character you want to play. OR 5b) Buy a nice UR subrace, begin building second character while looting with first character. Goal is reincarnate when have purchased two BUR subraces and one of the toons has reached level 60. OR 5c) UR subrace Looting caster is what I wanted. Begin quest for demigod status. (yeah, sounds sarcastic, but it's a real option for a first toon) 6) Go to Hell... Loot and subraces are going to happen as a byproduct of seeking demigod status. I know questions that have run through my head are: How much time do I invest in a toon when in the end I will wish I *did* have the extra dc, the walk on sand, the extra feats, etc? How much time will it take me to redo a character to level 60 again? How much time will it take me to mass the gold/gear I need? How much MORE does time mean if I want to play several types of toons? I'm sorry if this post is not clear or confusing or just rambling. Cheers, Madzapper
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Post by uncanny on Jan 16, 2012 20:24:44 GMT
When a wis/cha/str artifact ends in auction chests it never goes for less than 2 billions, usually 3, and it provides a single point of dc/ab to a single toon. A BUR book provides that and more, to how many toons you wish, yet some people find it unfair such high prices. Weird. And some intense immunities... which are more often than not what gets sought and not so much the stat jump. Add to this the fact that the Arti's are pretty much easy to locate - true, they don't always rock up, but when they spawn they are at "X" location, depending on the stat. Meanwhile bur races are dropping 3 books for every 3x of kind of armor, robe, shield, x according to stats taken by players in this very thread. That doesn't equate BUR, it equals irrationally high; otherwise it should have been 3x random BUR books for 3x random armor, robes, etc and not 3x of practically every kind. If the power of BUR race is so much lower than we all seem to think, then why do they not get set to drop more often? Solves the argument of their value.
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Post by Werehound Silverfang on Jan 16, 2012 20:43:41 GMT
When a wis/cha/str artifact ends in auction chests it never goes for less than 2 billions, usually 3, and it provides a single point of dc/ab to a single toon. A BUR book provides that and more, to how many toons you wish, yet some people find it unfair such high prices. Weird. And some intense immunities... which are more often than not what gets sought and not so much the stat jump. Add to this the fact that the Arti's are pretty much easy to locate - true, they don't always rock up, but when they spawn they are at "X" location, depending on the stat. Meanwhile bur races are dropping 3 books for every 3x of kind of armor, robe, shield, x according to stats taken by players in this very thread. That doesn't equate BUR, it equals irrationally high; otherwise it should have been 3x random BUR books for 3x random armor, robes, etc and not 3x of practically every kind. If the power of BUR race is so much lower than we all seem to think, then why do they not get set to drop more often? Solves the argument of their value. Your math is not adding up. If every BUR sub dropped 3x then the ratio would be 105/241, or nearly every other BUR would be a BUR book. 3 Books dropped, as did 3 of every other item. That's definitely equal in ratio. You really need to stop viewing each subrace as its own individual item. That's a hellacious argument for anything in this module: Dachy should not drop 11 bloods because of their use, nor should prissy or sissy.
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Post by Yojimbo on Jan 16, 2012 21:03:00 GMT
I think the farming option is mostly for those who have been around long enough to have multiple toons some of which may be good for farming. New players should just play where and how they are comfortable and enjoy. Loot and gold will come much faster now than it ever did when most of us talking here started. Most loot splits I have been in half the party has left before mass selling so it further increases the gold earned from those runs for the newer players.
uncanny the greatest value to a BUR sub is not how much it improves over a UR, Secret, or Open sub it is that you can create a virtualy unlimited number of toons with that newly unlocked subrace. This is why the drop rate should be kept higher than other BUR items as while yes you can transfer that amazing BUR item to your various toons it is a slight inconvenience as well you would prefer and could reasonably have the same item multiple times one copy of it for each toon it suits. I do fell the drop rate is too high but your rants make it sound like every run with BURs should drop 1 or more BUR books while I instead think something along the lines of 1-3 BUR books for every 5-10 runs. The best idea I have heard in this thread is adding some chests in specific runs which will always drop a BUR book.
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Post by KnightErrant on Jan 16, 2012 22:33:28 GMT
I know questions that have run through my head are: How much time do I invest in a toon when in the end I will wish I *did* have the extra dc, the walk on sand, the extra feats, etc? When I was new I had three or four "failed" open subrace toons in my vault that I later reincarnated to UR race toons...IMHO no xp earned is ever really wasted, even if you have to wait three months to redo it again it's better than starting over from zero. How much time will it take me to redo a character to level 60 again? How much time will it take me to mass the gold/gear I need? Gear can take a long time, full set's of Tia caster gear etc mean you have to do a lot of runs before you get what you want. How much MORE does time mean if I want to play several types of toons? My advice to a new player is play something sturdy and simple till you get enough gear to "branch out" as it were.....In my case I never made my Ranger till I had Katanas, Armor and other good gear for it, same with my Monk-seemed silly to have a Monk when I had no Monk gloves for it... I'm sorry if this post is not clear or confusing or just rambling. Cheers, Madzapper Find a group of newer players that play in your time slot and farm Beholders, Toy Shop etc and build up gold xp and stuff you can trade/sell....as Raj and others pointed out crafting items and rare drops can sell for a lot. Hope some of that helped. KE.
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Post by Raj on Jan 16, 2012 22:51:17 GMT
I can't tell you how to play, if you only enjoy malee tanks that's fine, good for you, and it's still easy to farm enough money to grab the ur books you need to reincarnate even before reach lvl 50. If you refrain from playing casters in general you already gimp yourself with the inability to form/join at will a lot of the end content runs, so you don't need BUR subraces at all if you're not going to visit hard areas on a regular basis Your 'player progression through the mod' list seems realistic: the time investment can be very high but it's the same for any online (addictive) game tbh. Many people started when BURs were given freely to newbies in docks so the perception of rarity changed dramatically; you don't see many of those hanging around anymore, and few became truly good players ( I'm of the idea that farming alone or in small party really improves your game skills, in a big party a error doesn't cause a wipe that often ). About today situation, I can only remember when it wasn't uncommon to only get your first BUR book a lot after your first demigod: I demi-ed 3 toons before finally build a radiance sorc, and didn't wait for another copy of the book to reincarnate my old rakshasa because a 2nd copy was almost impossible to get, like today. Those difficulties only hooked me ( and many others ) to play A LOT, and that's not a bad thing for the module longevity. It looks like people playing very little the end game areas and very little in general just feel the urge to have the end game toon, so while I agree drop rates are poor ( and I support the removal of a 2nd book copy during a reincarnation upgrade ) I don't desire to go back to the days every noob had all the races he could dream of, essentially losing a great motivation to play more. When a wis/cha/str artifact ends in auction chests it never goes for less than 2 billions, usually 3, and it provides a single point of dc/ab to a single toon. A BUR book provides that and more, to how many toons you wish, yet some people find it unfair such high prices. Weird. And some intense immunities... which are more often than not what gets sought and not so much the stat jump. If the power of BUR race is so much lower than we all seem to think, then why do they not get set to drop more often? Solves the argument of their value. I said wis/cha/str, and those are sought after for the +2 to stat, not much for the immunities ; CON arti is the most used one for the poison immunity alone, is not really farmable and usually goes for only 500-600 millions. The power of BUR subbies isn't game breaking but gives people something to aim for in the long run, and once aquired they remains forever so it's a good thing they are worth a lot. Btw, OT about your earlier post about pyramid: ssitrak and illithids being fugue areas don't stop you from going there right? None of us was demigod when arranging the first pyr farming runs, yet parties of 3-4 were the norm and helped a lot forming groups of regulars. When you find some guys that play when you usually play and are good mates to have on those farming runs you already have a core for hells and beyond, forming parties suddendly becomes a lot easier.
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Post by tagnusd on Jan 17, 2012 0:31:00 GMT
With randomization, it is much easier to trade for BUR subs, gold, etc from the vets because there are items that even folks that have been playing for years and have been to every area of the mod don't have. In hades, I grabbed a rare ring with ESF: Enchant on it, shouted and had offers for a planewalker ring, DC UR Cleric Cloak, and lots, lots more. Wis arti's still go easily for 2.75 billion, or can trade straight up for most bur subs. Int artis.. not so much. Portable holes, crucibles, both worth the time to farm them (crucibles a bit more but still viable for a 3 person well geared party).
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Post by Enius the White on Jan 17, 2012 0:58:20 GMT
I guess we just don't want to come across as saying: "Welcome to HG, the new player solo-farming based party server..."? Even if they have a stomach for it, new players will not learn much about effective end-game party play by being told to go solo the same LL run repeatedly until they can afford to buy a BUR sub from a vet. What does that achieve? Do we really want arbitrary new barriers to entry for new players, just so a few vets can make a bit more when they sell BUR books?
Laser Pointer has been on "over 100 hell runs" without getting a BUR subby. On average, a new player will now see ~130 mid-deep hell runs before winning one in a split. Then they have 34 more left to acquire. Is this what we want? Nobody else in the history of HG has ever progressed under these constraints. We all had way easier access to BUR subs, from the moment they dropped. Every vet commenting here had a BUR sub long before they did 100 hell runs. Players became good, and stayed, by playing end-game runs in groups, not by farming or soloing.
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Post by Werehound Silverfang on Jan 17, 2012 2:11:50 GMT
Every vet commenting here had a BUR sub long before they did 100 hell runs. Players became good, and stayed, by playing end-game runs in groups, not by farming or soloing. I did, and farmed/soloed for it back then. It even involved parking a rogue at a certain chest on each server and passing between them every 30 minutes, but by doing that I managed to nab over 300M GP an hour, just to buy my first BUR sub; a Radiance Genasi for 4 Billion back in early 2008. You can make that much just at level 26 (the lowest level required to open the chest with an open subby without feats; my rogue was a Derzagon). Hell, you can open it sooner with SF and ESF Disable Trap. My second Radiance Genasi didn't come until 2009, after I'd demid my Rakshasa (Negative Constitution modifier, had 400 HP fully buffed back then) twice and traded 5 BUR rings, 30 UR rings for it. Even then, I didn't "remake" him until Reincarnation came out later that year. People didn't WANT to sell BUR subs even back then; they were too valuable; more so than now. The problem right now is we're coming out of a boom, and people feel the return to normal is a bust, when it isn't. For that short period of time, the market was flooded with BUR subs, benefiting everyone in the long term by tagging them with subraces (and only the last 7 that were spawning too much) but harmed the server in it devalued said subraces in the short term. Over all it was a net gain, but people are upset at the price regression.
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Post by madzapper on Jan 17, 2012 2:14:41 GMT
I can't tell you how to play, if you only enjoy malee tanks that's fine, good for you, and it's still easy to farm enough money to grab the ur books you need to reincarnate even before reach lvl 50. If you refrain from playing casters in general you already gimp yourself with the inability to form/join at will a lot of the end content runs, so you don't need BUR subraces at all if you're not going to visit hard areas on a regular basis Well, I'm not much for melee... I understand what you are saying. It's just that your statement sort of adds to the time-invested-playing-something-a-person-doesn't-want-to-play-just-so-they-can-play-what-they-want-to-play argument. I think we agree on most points. Difficulty is important, books shouldn't be free or unnecessarily easy to get. Books were difficult to get, then they weren't, now they are again. Two books is a lot to ask for reincarnation, drop rate might be a little low. I agree with all of these. I don't agree/disagree with the implication that free subrace books lead to crappy players who just leave. I just don't see anything that can support this. Players leave for too many reasons and noobs are less likely to stay than to leave regardless. If I gave you a subrace book it wouldn't change your ability to play. There are plenty of reasons to farm besides subrace books (the thing you are farming, for example). Well, the first sentence is a strong statement. I cannot tell if it is pointed directly at me, or just many people making arguments. I have no comment except I agree about 2nd book and maybe a little easier to get the books. That would probably make things make more sense to me. For one thing, people could play the toon they want to play to level 60 as opposed to playing some other toon to level 40 to park until they have the subrace. This took much longer to write than I thought it would. I'm anxious to get some playing time in. I hope to see you all in the game. Cheers Madzapper
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