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Post by gandoron on Jan 13, 2012 20:31:13 GMT
Hmm, so if the 7 "most recent" bur books had a 7x drop rate within the bur category.
137 burs (bur books counting as 1) 25 bur subs
There were 18 bur subs before the 7 came in, so instead of have a 1/137 weight, the bur sub group would have a weight of (18+7*7)/25 = 2.68. Then the real chance to get a bur book was about 2.68/139.68. with the 7 new races being 7x as likely as the others.
So if the new chance is at 1/137, I do think having at least 2 would be reasonable and still lower than the earlier rate chance.
Is that correct math? (This math assumes that all other burs maintained a standard 1, weight)
-G
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Post by Enius the White on Jan 13, 2012 22:06:09 GMT
I think your math is good, but I'm not sure that the data that we were given is complete. If, as per the explanation/numbers that we have been offered, the real chance to see a bur book was 2.68/139.68 (1/52), then why did we see an average of ~1 BUR book per end game run at that time? 1/52 would still have required 52 BURs to drop per run to see the 1 book.
By all accounts, the drop rate has been reduced by much more than a factor of 2.68. Something else has changed as well, and if not intended, then it could explain the problem.
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Post by madzapper on Jan 13, 2012 22:15:16 GMT
So, If I got this right: * Some BUR races used to drop at a higher rate giving the impression that all BUR races dropped at a high rate. * Because of the previous perceived availability of some BUR race books, BUR race books in general were devalued. * Smaller player base means not as many hell runs can be performed. * Smaller player base means smaller pool of people to trade with; less likely to encounter the exact book you are after * Vets are likely already tagged the older subraces they wanted. Particularly true of the horders who have mass books in chests. * Vets are probably mostly interested in BUR equipment they do not have. These are also very difficult for new players to come by. * Level 60 requirement diminishes the pool of people who are interested (by reduced ability to use the books) in trading. * Level 60 requirement for new players means they will likely want to reincarnate to higher tier subrace. This is because they will have to take a lower tier all the way to 60 when they may have bailed as soon as they had the cash. * Toons can be made to get through Hells at open subrace tier. * The bottom has dropped out on UR subraces. Even fantastic ones like Fallen Angel are dirt cheap now (as opposed to the 75/100 mill before). * It is not as much fun to play an open subrace because DC suffers, AB suffers, AC suffers, feats and skills are very tight or impossible (limited build options), must wear lev ring + mord ring + breach ring + still maintain immunities, etc while I barely have the gear. * It is as much or more fun to play an open subrace because it is more challenging. * Playing open subrace toons teach players how to play better as a team. * Forcing new players to use open subraces to level 60 gets them to pay their dues. * Not everyone paid their dues. * Reincarnation to higher tier requires additional item * BUR book prices are very volatile right now. Generally much much higher than before. * Since the likelihood of replacing a subrace book is very slim, people are holding onto them. * The BUR definition is blurred with subrace books; All BUR subrace books are treated as one, although one subrace book cannot be used as any BUR subrace. * The Dev team's incentives are not necessarily the same as player incentives. * When the XR subrace books come, the BUR subrace books are likely to be plentiful again as those areas will produce BURs like Myco/Uro/Desert produces URs If the last bit is true, we just bide our time, right?The rest of this message is probably not of much use in this discussion... read if you want... I enjoy building new toons. I started on HG by trying to get as many subraces as I could and build as many different types of toons as I could. I watched the market and bought anything that looked cheap. Perhaps I was/am part of the perceived problem. I don't really know. I am fairly blessed with subraces for the types of toons I want to build. I have accumulated Rilmani, Half-Celestial, Spelljammer, Wemic (good grief I love the Wemic), Undying, Brownie... I have one Half-Eladrin in my bank chest for a buddy of mine who plays those Charisma-based toons. He's finally got a toon at level 22 and been playing off and on for about a year as well. I mostly enjoy the druid/cleric/wizard toons. I'd like to buy Genie for my wizard so I'm not quite as stressed out about the breach/mord rings, and of course I'd love to get my hands on the coveted Drow Noble (hell, yeah!) to upgrade my Rilmani theurge. I have my druid at lvl 60, and I'm working on my cleric, but I have several toons parked around lvl 40 waiting for different books for reincarnation. My second account has one BUR race - Wemic. I've logged a crapload of hours on the server in the last year. I have friends who I have brought along and do my best to help out, but to be honest this mess with the subraces is hard to explain to them as to why if things stay the same as they are now, they probably won't be getting a shiny new subrace for the buids they are trying to do anytime soon. At least there's Wemic's still out there. Heck, I bought my Wemic book for 250 million lol. I see one in the market now I'm tempted to buy at 650 million because I think my daughter would enjoy it. I bet, based on the 7x arguments that there must be tons of these laying around. My daughter's toon is finally about level 50, so only 10 more levels to go! Unfortunately for her, I'm saving for my genie book and I only have a little over a billion right now and they seem to fall into the 2.5-3 billion range the Half-Celestial does. My personal take on all of this? I want/like/need shiny new stuff to feel special I want to crunch numbers and build the best toons possible for the time I have to play. I will probably hold my BUR lvl 40's (Yup, I got a Wemic Cleric placeholder on my second account... +2 Wis and BUR tier...) until I know what the future holds for subraces and just keep progressing my Rilmani druid and my HC cleric. I have faith that it will all work out just fine in the end. There isn't enough movement the way it currently is. Yeah, there's no solution here... I guess take it as one user-case in the system. Cheers, Madzapper
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Post by Werehound Silverfang on Jan 13, 2012 22:59:03 GMT
The math is not quite correct, as each of the previous subraces had its own weight of 7, compared to all being one.
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Post by chirality on Jan 14, 2012 1:25:19 GMT
Good post, and one line in particular made me realize what bugs me about this whole deal: I can't explain it to my friends; I don't even really know what's going on, and from the looks of this thread it seems like I'm not alone.
Maybe it's so mysterious because we overcomplicate it, but whatever "it" is, it's definitely something, and no one seems to have an answer. Should there be a solution? Is there even a problem in the first place? Some seem to say yes, some no.
What do people think? Are BUR subraces really dropping the same as in the past? But just less than in the more recent past? What about all these books from the overwhelming numbers generated by the infamous group of subraces which dropped many times more often? Are all these stocked up somewhere? Is the drop rate going to change to satisfy popular demand, or is this just the way it's going to be indefinitely?
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Post by arek on Jan 14, 2012 5:21:46 GMT
I don't know how many people are left on HG who can answer that question, Chirality. I've been around quite a while and the subraces that had the high droprate have been in the game as long as I've played, and they always had the high droprate up until it was fixed recently.
As for how long it's gonna last, I don't know. It may be that it won't be changed, or it may be increased again. Personally, after reading some comments on BURs in the EEs, I think any change in the random drop rate should wait until some Paragon leveling areas drop (I'm sure there will be some that aren't the EEs), since BURs may well wind up being more common in those areas.
--Arek
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Post by crumbleykrunk on Jan 16, 2012 9:39:24 GMT
On the fact of BUR books dropping did Full Ness on Saturday night and we got Koly and last night we did a 6 man Half Ness and Erinyes dropped and same as Were said last few Ness runs i have been BUR books have dropped. Blass Tbh yes I may be a newbie on this server, I've only been playing for a few month's or so I play a bit but you guys have to look at it as a newbie perspective, yes I do consider you guys have been playing for a while so you guys do have these books stored up and what not and have ran the run's like 200 times or w/e w/e,. Yes a UR race COULD go to hell run's and such but let's face it really if I where to go on my whisper gnome or my spelljammer in like a phleg or a stygia hell group or something like that tbh my toon really wont be that effective or really do a whole lot because let's face it those kinda books really dont do a whole lot In hell run's and who's gonna want a gimped toon in there party or If I even get invited cuz I'm just a hindrance to the party and the slight chance I do get lucky to find that 1 bur book in a 12 man party I have a slight chance of even getting that book, and I maybe get lucky and get 3rd choice and the guy in first place pick's up that book when he or she may not even need the book just grab's it cuz there first or 2nd pick and lets face it a fallen angel cleric yeah it's a decent subby sure but let's take that to a nessus run, who's gonna want that fallen angel in there party only for what my epics? I dont have the DC's or the gear to do anything in there id just be invis spammin pet's if that's what you even do in nessus I don't know. I just don't wanna be a hindrance to my party because I don't have a decent class when the guy next to me has like all the book's + more in storage just sitting around I'll never be able to trade or even compete in even being able to obtain those book's and being in a 8-12 man group in hells wont get me a whole lot and hardly anything if even get anything. Not asking for higher drop rates just want you guys to look at it as a newbie on this server what we have to do and beyond to even get anything done or be anyone, yeah yeah just tell me to be quite and run more hell run's newb bleh bleh... no one may say that but ppl will say that to themself's but as a newbie on this server and thing's being the way they where back a few years ago when everyone and there grandma's got hc koly and what ever every few run's and passed them around and now it's just not even funny you guys may find them all the time in deeper layer's of hell but I cant handle those area's nor do you even want me to be in your 8th layer hell group's to just carry me and be a extra person on the rollin list =/
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Post by uncanny on Jan 16, 2012 10:27:33 GMT
Welcome to the forums Crumbley First thing is that the server limits you to 10 members only, so 12man group won't be an issue - but I agree with the sentiment in general. The drop rate is so low that it'd be hard to get the book in the first place let alone win the roll and get the book. Nobody likes being carried, no less in a difficult run where wipes are expensive. Just to clarify something here, before someone does jump in: you don't need even a UR to play hells; but to play with open races you need either very specific build types or be very experienced in order to do so (this is getting fixed to a degree, for instance the DC's being lowered in some spots to help non-BUR races cope). There are some players who feel a non-ur druid for example is pointless, while others point out that even UR would be pointless. Some thing that BUR races are cheap, just a few billion (but forget how hard it was to get that first billion, and most especially how long it takes to get to the position to do runs that earn 10's of millions or more per run). Cata's comment higher up might have been tongue-in-cheek, but indeed this is the sentiment that new players are clearly feeling at this point. "high and mighty don't want any newcomers please" indeed. Erm, lastly.. I'm not being rude but I really struggled to read what you've written there. Please consider punctuation and grammer (no, I'm not one of those grammar idiots; just found your post very hard to read )
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Post by Shakua on Jan 16, 2012 11:39:30 GMT
@crumbley
First..Spelljammer is a bur sub
Second: I have no idea why your putting your self down. Sounds like somebody gave you the wrong idea that what tier of subrace you play can be a hindrance to your party.
For dc based classes, the most gap your looking at is +3. That dc difference is not going to make or break your run.
The difference between ur subs and bur subs is normally 1 dc. So saying your ur sub wont do a whole lot compared to the rest of the group is just your perception.
Your Fallen Angel cleirc? Cleric is one easiest classes that could get away with any race. any dc thats not made up in wisdom can be over come with battle tide and prayer, an advantage that other classes cant use.
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Post by Raj on Jan 16, 2012 12:50:03 GMT
Some thing that BUR races are cheap, just a few billion (but forget how hard it was to get that first billion, and most especially how long it takes to get to the position to do runs that earn 10's of millions or more per run). Level 40 Immo. Play anything, park it on all servers near deepbat/drow areas, ignore enemies, grab loot, run for your life/gs, rinse, repeat. Port to town and sell to vendors, some appraise might help. I bought my first desert mord ring for 100 millions ages ago ( think what you can buy these days, any couple of UR books to upgrade your first toon, while desert rings aren't even looted anymore ) after 3-4 hours of farming with my first immo lvl 42 bane knight Any level ~50 caster can solo toyshop in reasonable time and farm some portable holes, usually sold around 800 millions gold, or Beholders, for Eyes of Vecna at about the same value. A couple 60s can farm pyramid energies and those usually go for 2-3 billions, but it's always the same ones visiting that old area ( it was farmed without demigods and with secret races in past, with far worse gear than what's availabe today, and the area didn't change ). I'm personally buying LL crafting secrets for 50-300 millions each depending on area so just raise search on a wizard/pm with spare skill points and go get those, maybe Hive and PoM are out of question but I see many newbies soloing Loca/Myco with their casters and nobody bothers checking for secrets. You can easily sell forge material to anybody with spare billions in bank, just try to use the sell chest because not many can be bothered to wait 7 days for a auction. My point being I'd have no issues with BUR races dropping less than in past if that could help exaust some of the dozen BUR books taking dust in bankchests, but I see very good BUR races going unsold in the market where it would only take couple afternoons of farming to get them, and then noobs ( not direct to you, in general, trying to stimulate a reaction ) complain they can't get them, when in fact they just join runs shouted by others, don't build casters that could be used to farm LL areas and wait for the ( almost impossible atm ) chance for a BUR race upgrade. With a lot less loot availabe I saw fallen angels and planewalkers being sold for billions in past and nobody ever complained, yet people claim a 'reasonable' price for Half Celestial would be 2 billions, no wonder they aren't getting them, that's incredibly unfair; just a hint btw, people with spare good BUR races aren't deseperate after gold, but if you want to invest some spare time soloing LL and are lucky enough to get a Ego item on a usable UR that could net you enough BURs for your next toons My guts are telling me that BURs are truly dropping less than in past, and I'm referring to old times before the 7x bugged set of races came in, and no randomization or loot from poops either, so reincarnating to BUR is out of question if you don't get some very nice gift. Otoh, URs are incredibly easy to aquire for anybody, so while I don't mind partying with UR-race users even in the hardest areas of the module (read below), seeing a yuan-ti or lizard in lvl 60 areas only means that player is too lazy to upgrade, not a good self-advertisement. UR races are totally fine in Hells, funny thing about your example is that one guy in my latest group of regulars just reached demigod ( and Ely/Abo tags, and is tagging for the next prince fight ) with a FA cleric after having played here for a bit more than one month, and never felt like been dragged. That's because a UR race compared to a BUR one just loses 1 point of dc and sometime a epic school focus ( FA clerics don't even lose that, can play a 5 epics one ), nothing game-breaking, and if you feel useless compared to other players it's not a issue with the race. There're many H-C clerics around that ( politely speaking ) suck with them because they don't use prayer/don't stay in range with battletide/don't wait for monsters to be cursed or NB-ed and never bestow curse, then just throw implosions without even knowing what they can kill with it; don't blind follow the mass and try to learn everything you can asking in-game and reading the wiki ( expecially the part about monsters spell immunity ). If you don't feel ready for deep Hells it's just that, you're not ready and need to play more in LL and upper hells improving your skills and getting more gear, don't be in a hurry and you'll feel more satisfatory to achieve demigood and beyond achievements knowing you actively contributed to the success of the party, even with a lame UR toon!
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Post by uncanny on Jan 16, 2012 13:46:23 GMT
Some thing that BUR races are cheap, just a few billion (but forget how hard it was to get that first billion, and most especially how long it takes to get to the position to do runs that earn 10's of millions or more per run). Level 40 Immo. Play anything, park it on all servers near deepbat/drow areas, ignore enemies, grab loot, run for your life/gs, rinse, repeat. Port to town and sell to vendors, some appraise might help. I bought my first desert mord ring for 100 millions ages ago ( think what you can buy these days, any couple of UR books to upgrade your first toon, while desert rings aren't even looted anymore ) after 3-4 hours of farming with my first immo lvl 42 bane knight Any level ~50 caster can solo toyshop in reasonable time and farm some portable holes, usually sold around 800 millions gold, or Beholders, for Eyes of Vecna at about the same value. All good points; it can take a lot of time to learn how if you don't have any help. I currently solo most of Toyshop (takes me about 60-70 mins since I have to rest a lot) and have done since my sorcerer reached lvl43 (only thing I'm struggling with is boss, purely don't have enough damage output to put everything down before it all spawns again otherwise I'd solo it completely). I've been lucky to come away with 5-8million in goods sold from TS, selling off my PM with high appraise. PH is definitely worth the efforts but only seen it spawn once in 25 runs lately (that was with party, so no clue if changes to block solo hunting were done). Pyramid is probably where it's at, though I have no clue how to even get started there; and it's a fugue spot for immos so no way in heck for me to consider it. I agree with what you're saying completely (please don't get me wrong), but you assume new players know what you do and forget that often even old idiots like me know nothing in comparison .
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Post by Lythe Featherblade on Jan 16, 2012 15:44:30 GMT
The build matters more than the race. Some classes/builds the race upgrade is barely noticable, others it allows it to go from fairly squishy and below par to right in its element.
I know 1 player who pretty much only plays kobolds, an open race, because he like their appearance. He has multiple characters of different classes that have been successful in all areas of the game. Another player likes Doppleganger, because you can do quests for a custom appearance. It is a +wisdom UR race, very good for wis casters, but this player plays everything including Strength tanks with it, and is also successful in all areas of the game.
For something like rangers, on a Zen ranger using called shot, open to BUR race makes an initial difference of 1 DC. Once you've gotten to the hardest part of the game, all the items and defeated the hells 2+ times, only then does it become 2 DC (at which point you should have found, or be able to afford, the upgrade easily).
A strength ranger is a bit harder as you need a bit of good gear to pull it off, but an open subrace dex ranger is very viable, has the same AC as a BUR race, and can even be build as a solid light uni-tank. I've played both a zen ranger and a dex ranger as a UR race through the hells, the zen ranger even after I already had multiple BUR subraces (because like the player mentioned above, I like custom appearances on dopplegangers).
When the hells opened, the best players all had UR subraces, and reincarnation didn't exist. The hells got completed with UR races. Combine that with random loot that allows +14 to stats, which is even more recent, and you already are in the position of BUR race equivalency with a UR race, or better than UR with an open race.
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Post by tyranlthixis on Jan 16, 2012 17:09:47 GMT
curious, what are the actual problems? I mean this as an open and free form discussion. Obviously griping and groaning won't make for constructive conversation. 1) Is the bigger problem that people aren't getting the specific book they need. 2) Every hell or abyss run should drop at least one race book? 3) Perhaps the deeper runs (and maybe they do already) should / could have a drop rate % so 1st 3 hell runs yields 5% BUR while the next 3 levels increase it to say 10% and the Nessus is XX%. Then a similar pattern for Abyss? 4) Perhaps set the drop as a metric of party size? (again maybe it does) in an effort to have players try to do runs with a full compliment. 5) Is there a factor of the book trade in to upgrade a reinc? So you "finally" got that Koly book but the perfect toon to upgrade you don't have a 2nd Koly book for. Perhaps allowing a different BUR book to be traded in would suffice? 6) Would a book trade in help? ie: Trading say 3 UR's for one next level up at a hard to get to area as a quest (ie: the Sphinx with the blood) and have a selection of specific books allowed to be traded for. Ultra cool if the interaction conversation list included books already traded into the quest taker!! 7) Let me add that a compliment to the staff and helpers on the recent Grinch event that offered some books to the participants including a Koly book. Taking advantage of these events is a great way to experience many areas of the server you may not frequent and meet new players and monsters. Other thoughts? Again, make this constructive and insightful. Griping just give me more books isn't going to help, but solutions, and exploring options can. 1.) Yes, but there are easy to get races that are almost as good as the BUR version for any particular build. For example, Kenku and Rilmani for a caster druid. The difference is often breadth of character rather than a straight power boost. Most tank builds can be built with considerable power with Stinger or Planewalker (UR races) which are fairly easily obtained on the player market or on most LL runs. Other open races with the addition of drinking blood for a free feat can be better than some UR races. Gnoll with a free feat is pretty darn good and you look awesome. I'm willing to bet if I took my gnoll barbarian on a hells run people would be hard pressed to keep up with its damage output. 2.) Sounds like a good idea, but that would flood the market. It wasn't pretty in the past when that happened. It was very bad for long term player retention. If there is going to be some kind of a set drop it really should be at the end of a less done but difficult run such as Aboleths or Elysium. 3.) They already do have a dynamic that is similar to what you requested. 4.) Larger parties do have better BUR drop rates. I believe it caps out at 8 or 9 people. There is also accommodation for runs done during off peak hours when there are few player on. 5.) A lot of people use less valuable bur race books to upgrade their characters. Then in 3 months you can reincarnate straight to Koly without the need for a second book.
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Post by Enius the White on Jan 16, 2012 17:38:20 GMT
If UR subbies are not greatly inferior to BUR subbies, then why should the price of BUR subbies be 4000% - 12000% more that UR ones!?? This is currently the case, because of our drop rate change. We cannot argue it both ways. Which is it? Are BUR subbies 4000% - 12000% better/more valuable that UR ones or not?
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Post by tyranlthixis on Jan 16, 2012 17:53:44 GMT
People are obsessed with optimizing their characters? I think that is it. The actual power difference, in most cases, is a single AB or DC and a feat or two. BUR races sell for large amounts of gold because they difficult to obtain. People don't need the best race for a given build, but they do WANT the best race possible. Even if that only means a minor upgrade. Obviously that desire trumps the desire for a lot of gold. in my case Kolyrut is virtually useless to me so 2 billion gold is MUCH more valuable to me.
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