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Post by shardelay on Jan 10, 2012 18:05:44 GMT
I voted "way too frequently". How am I supposed to grind the populace under my iron clad heel if the kobolds, arctic dwarves, and plain humans are given socialized subraces? Equality is all well and good when we are talking about shift length and whipping frequency in the mithril mines, but this is about class warfare. DOWN WITH THE COMMONS
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Post by Sapphire [SL] on Jan 10, 2012 18:39:23 GMT
6) Would a book trade in help? ie: Trading say 3 UR's for one next level up at a hard to get to area as a quest (ie: the Sphinx with the blood) and have a selection of specific books allowed to be traded for. Ultra cool if the interaction conversation list included books already traded into the quest taker!! The above will not help as I and others have found already. Unfortunately there are those out there hording race books and demanding artifacts/ego's and other such items for trading such books. Till one resolves this nothing will change, those that have the books will horde them. By the time one gets the artifacts/ego's to enable such trades one will be involved in finding the book they'd been looking for in the first place. Thus trade will not happen. I guess I am going to get pillared for saying so, but this is just another form of blocking by the haves to those without. Sapphire
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Post by CataclysmicDeath on Jan 10, 2012 19:31:18 GMT
I voted too frequently. Cause I'm ebil and cause there are still way too many bur tions and way too few open subs beating asmo but mostly cause I'm ebil.
Cata
Sent from my HTC Wildfire S A510e using ProBoards
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Post by CataclysmicDeath on Jan 10, 2012 19:42:04 GMT
I guess I am going to get pillared for saying so, but this is just another form of blocking by the haves to those without. Sapphire Well as one of the "haves" I can tell you it isn't about blocking. It's about supply and demand. Like any market when demand goes up so does the price. When the supply of the available goods drops price goes up. You want to see the price go down convince Funky to flood the market with BUR subraces. Having said that, I'm probably one of the few people that will very likely still give away a bur book or trade it for less than most would trade a ur subrace. Cata Sent from my HTC Wildfire S A510e using ProBoards
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Post by Enius the White on Jan 10, 2012 20:37:27 GMT
I think lumping 40 different books in as 1 BUR item, then dropping that "item" at the same rate as any specific single BUR item may be a problem. Another end-game multi-version item that comes to mind is gems. How are they treated on the loot list? I know that in the last two weeks in Hades, I got 2 bank chests full of assorted gems (over 100) to 3 BUR items (no book). Clearly drop rate is adjusted, item specific.
This issue is compounded by 3 factors: 1) BUR books are consumable 2) Unlike many other BURs, players will likely want to use more than 1 of them 3) There are way more items (BURs and consumables) on the drop list than before (ergo the current drop rate is significantly lower than ever before).
A quick comparison of Beyond Ultra Rare book prices to other Beyond Ultra Rare items in the auction at time of writing, shows us:
Priced:
Steadfast Slippers 150,100,600 (no takers) Coil of Grabduk 200,100,600 (no takers) Divine Intervention 50,100,100 (no takers)
Auction:
Book of Races, Half-Molydeus Bid 2,100,100,100
The Ur-Ward of Wintry Blasts Rsv 150,100,100 (no bid) Plate of the Legendary Master Rsv 90,100,100 (no bid) Battle Axe Wielder's Robes of the Dim Mak Master Rsv 150,100,100 (no bid) Pyroclastic Flow Rsv 90,100,100 (no bid) Overlord's Ring of Inverted Weaves Bid 90,100,100
I think it's self evident that all BURs are just worth way less than they used to be. Lower book drop rate = even more other BURs, depreciating them even more.
Of all the BUR items out there, only BUR books have value mainly only for newer, poorer players; shouldn't their price be lower than other BURs? Why are we so worried about keeping BUR book prices high and not other BURs? Other than new players needing them, what is the distinction between the 2? Personally, I have about 80 BUR books and 300 good BURs in chests. I have way more great BURs, than BUR books, that are worth a tiny fraction of what they used to be. Why should I only care about the value of the books that only newer players want/need?
And just so we are all on the same page, the higher drop rate for the release of Wemic, Furchin, Brownie, etc. was never a "Bug". The rate was intentionally set to the higher level at the time of release to allow those new, high demand (no vets had them), subs to disseminate. The common wisdom at the time was that anything that enabled and encouraged players to start new toons/classes was a good thing.
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Post by Werehound Silverfang on Jan 10, 2012 23:12:56 GMT
It's also usability that influences value.
A subrace will be indefinitely useful on many possible characters forever. A UR-Ward can only be used on a single character at any given time, and, chances are, will end up being replaced with something better.
I've sold pieces of gear for over 5.5 billion gold. EXTREMELY well randomized. It totally depends on usability of the object in question.
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Post by laserpointer on Jan 11, 2012 0:31:18 GMT
I think the the drop rate is fine if the dev team and community think that the current rate of drops reflects the amount of time that should be spent trying to acquire one.
Since the book change I've only seen 2 Howlers, 1 Pharlan, 1 RG, and 1 Half-Kyton drop total in over 100 hell runs. Didn't get the chance to get any of them as they all went in the first couple picks - but on the flip side I've won some really neat gear/egos that rivals BUR book quality. So while I'm not sure I'm going to be winning a BUR book for at least 200 more hell runs, I am confident that if not a BUR book I'll be winning some loot that is just as good as or slightly less valuable than a BUR book. A new player probably isn't going to win a BUR book until at least over 150 hell runs or more but something to consider at the same time is that in that time players also can acquire very valuable sets/well randomized BURs/lots of valuable consumables. Bazaar/Auction is a great tool for circulating gear around the market for equivalent or multiples of less-equivalent items.
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Post by evildeath123 on Jan 11, 2012 7:30:54 GMT
I'd love to cast a vote, but I really have no idea on the drop rates as I haven't been able to go anywhere that BURS drop for months. Hard to get a hell run going when there are only 5-15 players online when I play...and the higher numbers are usually peeps splitting after a run and then logging off...
I *can* say that soloing Hades isn't any fun for me. I've lost several BURS and gained nothing on the few times I've attempted it and am unlikely to try again having experienced such disasterous results in the past...
From my standpoint, BURS have been removed from the game entirely and the drop rate is irrelevant.
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Post by uncanny on Jan 11, 2012 10:56:44 GMT
I'd love to cast a vote, but I really have no idea on the drop rates as I haven't been able to go anywhere that BURS drop for months. Hard to get a hell run going when there are only 5-15 players online when I play...and the higher numbers are usually peeps splitting after a run and then logging off... And therein is part of the problem - less players, less runs. Less runs PLUS lower drop-rate? You do the math, I suck at it. Ah but not really, since the "haves".. err have them, areas will still be designed with the kit in mind. Secondly, it just destroys the buzz on the rare occasion that you do win a sub-race when you realise that now you need to rebuild, because the likelihood of getting ANY race (let alone the one you need) in the next several hundred runs is remote in the first place. Lastly... we need to distinguish race vs kit here. Races are not, and should not, be regarded as kit. I can use most kit practically anywhere that supports the level/class restrictions, at once, no problem. A new race? Not so much. Lets face the fact that a subrace is NOT the same category as kit. Any toon NEEDS certain kit, or it WILL die horribly, and repeatedly. Fear? Death Immune? KB immunities? Whatever. It does not NEED a race to be the best it can be, BUT it does ease building options significantly; and additionally for DC/AB/AC classes it means a difference of up to 3 points PLUS the ability to make stat-based saves that are so vital to some areas. Try standing up to a Malebranche with too little dex, or a Pit Fiend with too little strength (more critters that do these stat checks I know, but just example). The stats needed for a tank at either spectrum are mildly probable with UR races if you gank yourself somewhat , but BUR seems to be the way it must go for a tank that wants to be effective. Even the best, most well-randomized, kit-of-awesomeness does NOT counter the need for stat spread. Because of this need, I would say that BUR races are not necessary at the level of BUR equipment, but higher (hence why people are willing to give whatever it takes now that they're sparse). It's nothing to do with supply/demand on it's own, it's got to do with build options that are simply not there with equipment alone.
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Post by magecat on Jan 11, 2012 12:34:20 GMT
It's also usability that influences value. A subrace will be indefinitely useful on many possible characters forever. A UR-Ward can only be used on a single character at any given time, and, chances are, will end up being replaced with something better. This is, in my opinion, a self defeating argument, since, once you acquire that "more capable" race, you generally stop using the "less capable" race. As an example, I have a tendency to look through the open sub forum for builds I can "improve" with my limited collection of upper tier races. Long before the current situation, I was making my first/only BlaDD using Dragonblooded since it was the only thing I had that could meet some of the requirements. Some kind soul, who I thanked profusely at the time, inquired what I was doing and gave me a Salamander book. I immediately abandoned the Dragonblooded toon (deleted) and rebuilt using Salamander. I have not dipped into Dragonblooded since. I do not believe it is accurate to say that you use the races you have advanced past forever. That argument may be accurate for people that are trying to challenge themselves by seeing what they can accomplish now that they no longer find the mod challenging (unusual builds/teams/etc), but for the majority of players, once you get something more capable, you "retire" the lower tier races.
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Post by polimetral on Jan 11, 2012 13:31:29 GMT
When I first joined this server people were always talking about how needed BUR subraces were in order to have a useful build to be able to finish the endgame areas (Hells). However, as someone else posted on this topic, there were various updates that eased these runs, namely +14 stats, nerfs on mobs' saves, etc, making UR subraces also useful and doable.
People still cling to the idea that you MUST have a BUR subraces in order to be capable of doing these endgame runs, when the mentality should be that BUR subraces allows you to make an optimized build that excells in these areas, but arent indispensable for running them.
Being that way, I believe that BUR subraces shouldn't be considered "regular" BURs, justifying the arguments that their rate drops should be increased, but items very rare and sought after, as an artifact or something like that.
Also, I believe that the new areas are being devised having in mind the current rarity of BUR subraces, being more balanced for UR subrace characters.
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Post by shardelay on Jan 11, 2012 13:53:33 GMT
I guess I am going to get pillared for saying so, but this is just another form of blocking by the haves to those without. As I said before. This is definately class warfare. W/out some means of oppressing the masses I will be forced to PK and pickpocket all open subrace toons to maintain superiority. This would force me to log in more frequently, which is fine, except when I'm logged in I have a hard time getting my foot rubs because the foot rubbers keep complaining about all the electrical cables under my desk.
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Post by shardelay on Jan 11, 2012 13:59:11 GMT
And don't worry, we'll soon add XR books which most of the sever can't get, in areas where BUR's drop like UR's, thus flooding the BUR market again and creating an entire new venue for complaining about how the game can't be played w/out XR subs, how BUR's are everywhere but XR's are impossible and how the game is about to DIE a fiery apocalyptic death.
BOOM.
We do this to encourage class warfare, and by class warfare I mean clerics versus rangers in a no holes barred cage match.
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Post by buddhamind on Jan 11, 2012 14:39:49 GMT
We do this to encourage class warfare, and by class warfare I mean clerics versus rangers in a no holes barred cage match. Hmmm I think most clerics aren't immune to CS. But then again most rangers don't take humanoids as FEs.
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Post by Werehound Silverfang on Jan 11, 2012 16:23:30 GMT
It's also usability that influences value. A subrace will be indefinitely useful on many possible characters forever. A UR-Ward can only be used on a single character at any given time, and, chances are, will end up being replaced with something better. This is, in my opinion, a self defeating argument, since, once you acquire that "more capable" race, you generally stop using the "less capable" race. As an example, I have a tendency to look through the open sub forum for builds I can "improve" with my limited collection of upper tier races. Long before the current situation, I was making my first/only BlaDD using Dragonblooded since it was the only thing I had that could meet some of the requirements. Some kind soul, who I thanked profusely at the time, inquired what I was doing and gave me a Salamander book. I immediately abandoned the Dragonblooded toon (deleted) and rebuilt using Salamander. I have not dipped into Dragonblooded since. I do not believe it is accurate to say that you use the races you have advanced past forever. That argument may be accurate for people that are trying to challenge themselves by seeing what they can accomplish now that they no longer find the mod challenging (unusual builds/teams/etc), but for the majority of players, once you get something more capable, you "retire" the lower tier races. It's not self defeating. In fact, you just strengthened my argument. You'll never dip into a lower tier because you gained that BUR subrace; it's INCREDIBLY USEFUL, and you can use it on as many new characters as you like. Perhaps you misread my post?
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