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Post by m3chladon on Jan 11, 2012 19:35:53 GMT
Just a say on it, as a constant 3 man party out in Hades for a little over a month of farming almost everyday we totaled about
2-3 of every single bur drop as far as items go ( No need to buy BUR items anymore I have everything, Implosion rings, Confuse Amulets, and Wraps of the Fistanlantus you name it. Hell I have about 40+ biorevivfiers from Hades alone ) 11 ego items over 150 UR subraces ( I seeded a bunch on the market for newer players for like 10mil a pop ) and 3 BUR subraces (Rilmani, Pharlan, and Juggernaut)
I have like 4 Ur-Ward Shields and 3 Dim mak robes
Hours clocked? I'd give or take 200+ hours of intense farming sprees between 2 servers with party logged at Zerials Workshop.
Spawns on average were Cornugons, Nycaloths, Marrenloths, and Gelugons (o lord the Gelugons) and literally had 5-20 spawns at a time, this was not farming for the faint of heart and we got good at it. As a 3 man party (Same house) we have been gaming for a long time and only joined this server for the difficulty because we like to study and excel at things like Hades and used it as a stage point to allow us to move further into the game as a small party.
Just to give perspective on how farming BUR books in a solitary environment with constant variables is for Hades.
Personally I highly discourage farming Hades for BUR books anymore, you simply need to get super lucky, you'll end up with an Ego Ur-ward before you end up with a BUR book, probably get Spelljammer or something anyways.
Off-topic Ego items can be pretty bogus, let me tell you how well this Cleric belt with Bard Song Ego or Sorceror Belt with Druid Ego trade for. I got a Ranger light armor with Paladin Ego also, don't rush at me boys these items are hot hot hot
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Post by uncanny on Jan 11, 2012 21:29:40 GMT
Just a say on it, as a constant 3 man party out in Hades for a little over a month of farming almost everyday we totaled about 2-3 of every single bur drop as far as items go ( No need to buy BUR items anymore I have everything, Implosion rings, Confuse Amulets, and Wraps of the Fistanlantus you name it. Hell I have about 40+ biorevivfiers from Hades alone ) 11 ego items over 150 UR subraces ( I seeded a bunch on the market for newer players for like 10mil a pop ) and 3 BUR subraces (Rilmani, Pharlan, and Juggernaut) I have like 4 Ur-Ward Shields and 3 Dim mak robes Hours clocked? I'd give or take 200+ hours of intense farming sprees between 2 servers with party logged at Zerials Workshop.
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Post by uncanny on Jan 11, 2012 21:30:39 GMT
Just a say on it, as a constant 3 man party out in Hades for a little over a month of farming almost everyday we totaled about 2-3 of every single bur drop as far as items go ( No need to buy BUR items anymore I have everything, Implosion rings, Confuse Amulets, and Wraps of the Fistanlantus you name it. Hell I have about 40+ biorevivfiers from Hades alone ) 11 ego items over 150 UR subraces ( I seeded a bunch on the market for newer players for like 10mil a pop ) and 3 BUR subraces (Rilmani, Pharlan, and Juggernaut) I have like 4 Ur-Ward Shields and 3 Dim mak robes Hours clocked? I'd give or take 200+ hours of intense farming sprees between 2 servers with party logged at Zerials Workshop. Them figures sound dangerously close to statistics, collected over 200 hours dedicated farming. Getting just 3 bur races, in the same time getting 3 of all other BURs says it's not even bur drop rate. Off-topic Ego items can be pretty bogus, let me tell you how well this Cleric belt with Bard Song Ego or Sorceror Belt with Druid Ego trade for. I got a Ranger light armor with Paladin Ego also, don't rush at me boys these items are hot hot hot Yup. Seeing items in the market like a wizard-only staff with shifter ego. I mean, seriously I'm all for some ego options being possible but W.T. and Fudgepaste makes someone think this is worth the effort??
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Post by arek on Jan 12, 2012 2:26:52 GMT
Actually, that looks about right, since it looks like you have about the same chance of getting any one BUR sub as getting another BUR item. Meaning that you can have the same chance of getting an UR-Ward shield as you do of getting one random BUR Subrace. This is exactly what the stated drop rate is supposed to be, tho I will say that I think it's probably too low. I do think that having each subrace as its own bur item is right either, but maybe giving BUR races 3 or so total "slots" on the rarity chart would help.
--Arek
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Post by m3chladon on Jan 12, 2012 6:40:39 GMT
I agree with giving BUR books about 3 slots instead of 1 would pretty much remedy the situation, especially with XR races coming out down the line. XR races should be 1 slot, BUR should be about 3
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Post by uncanny on Jan 12, 2012 7:55:51 GMT
Actually, that looks about right, since it looks like you have about the same chance of getting any one BUR sub as getting another BUR item. Meaning that you can have the same chance of getting an UR-Ward shield as you do of getting one random BUR Subrace. This is exactly what the stated drop rate is supposed to be, tho I will say that I think it's probably too low. I do think that having each subrace as its own bur item is right either, but maybe giving BUR races 3 or so total "slots" on the rarity chart would help. --Arek I'd disagree: imho to make it equivalent of a bur item rarity, if you get 3 of -every- BUR item, there should be average 3 of each race. Each race is very different on how stats are arranged and prioritized feats are placed. Just like BUR kit - you can't call a Ur Ward equal to Pyroclastic Flow (yet both are tower shields); just like you can't call Rilmani equal to Half Cloud Giant (just as both are races).
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Post by gandoron on Jan 12, 2012 15:43:37 GMT
I probably missed this somewhere, but could someone clarify something for me. There are 121 bur items, 25 bur races.
After the changes, are all BUR subs considered 1 slot in the bur random selection 1/122, then there is a 1/25 option for each particular book to come up. is each book given an option, which is 25/146. I guess I would assume the prior. And are bur books given equal weighting so they are 1/122, or are they given a bit more so it's more like 3/124 (3x weighting on bur books as a group).
If you received about 3x of each bur item and 3 bur subraces, it seems to be a properly 1/122 drop rate. Though your still a bit low for proper statistical assumptions.
-G
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Post by Enius the White on Jan 12, 2012 16:40:02 GMT
Hey Gand, I think more subs and items have been added. Werehound summed it up nicely in this thread: highergroundpoa.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=Tavern&action=display&thread=21210&page=2Dec 20, 2011, 6:19pm, Werehound Silverfang wrote:
They are just as hard to find as anything else. There are (iirc) a total of 137 BUR items, counting ALL of the books as 1 item. The chances of getting a BUR book is 1 in 137. The same as any 1 BUR item. The chances of getting any 1 specific subrace if a book is chosen is then 1 in 35. So, overall, the chances of a subrace book are the same for everything else, but the chances of getting the subrace you want are 1 in 4795.I'll add that since " ...the chances of getting the subrace you want are 1 in 4795" per BUR drop, on any 1 run, this chance is multiplied by the ~1 in 10 chance of winning any item in the split, and divided by the number of BURs that drop per run. It works out, on average, to roughly 5000 end-game runs to get a specific BUR book. To put it another way, say you wanted to find a Divine Intervention (BUR ammy) for your cleric. And, you also wanted to find Furchin (BUR book), to start a new Slinger. On average, you will now find 35 Divine Intervention ammy's (3.5 bank chests full) on runs before you find your first Furchin.
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Post by shardelay on Jan 12, 2012 17:52:08 GMT
As a further effort to express my class superiority and dominance, I would like to see furchin and furchin only drop rates increased such that all players loot 35 furchins for every 1 divine intervention ammy.
This should not apply to other bur subraces as that would be akin to arming the peasants with pitchforks and torches.
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Post by shardelay on Jan 12, 2012 18:22:50 GMT
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Post by gandoron on Jan 12, 2012 20:04:41 GMT
Thanks Enuis, i was sure I had seen that somewhere. So "m3chladon" experience is consistent with the current algorithm and planned drop rate. ~1/137 chance to see a book.
The 1/5000 math is flawed for a lot of reasons, like the fact that trading exists, everyone doesn't pick the book first, multiple books could drop at once. However a particular book compared to a particular bur is 1/35 difference.
I haven't run in a couple months due to a new baby in the family (my first). However, I find it hard to believe that all bur books used to be at 1/137. Many many runs would see multiple bur books, sometimes 4 on a nessus, and we def didn't have anywhere close to 548 burs (StdDev is probably a 368-729 range). So if it's really 1/137 now, it would seem much lower than before. I personally think maybe a 2x or 3x weight would be fine, so 2/138 or 3/139 for BUR books.
-G
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Post by Bad on Jan 12, 2012 22:51:05 GMT
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Post by Werehound Silverfang on Jan 12, 2012 23:07:46 GMT
Thanks Enuis, i was sure I had seen that somewhere. So "m3chladon" experience is consistent with the current algorithm and planned drop rate. ~1/137 chance to see a book. The 1/5000 math is flawed for a lot of reasons, like the fact that trading exists, everyone doesn't pick the book first, multiple books could drop at once. However a particular book compared to a particular bur is 1/35 difference. I haven't run in a couple months due to a new baby in the family (my first). However, I find it hard to believe that all bur books used to be at 1/137. Many many runs would see multiple bur books, sometimes 4 on a nessus, and we def didn't have anywhere close to 548 burs (StdDev is probably a 368-729 range). So if it's really 1/137 now, it would seem much lower than before. I personally think maybe a 2x or 3x weight would be fine, so 2/138 or 3/139 for BUR books. -G Again, that's because of a correction with the second most recent group of Subraces. It was higher to 'get them out there", an idea that was never corrected after a time as it was intended to be, and it's biting us in the butt. I can guarantee you NEVER saw 2 HCs or 2 Radiance Genasis or even 2 Kolys in one loot split; the chances are just too ridiculous. You're seeing those at the same rate you saw them before, just the others are now at the same rate as the rest. Think of how often you see a Sapphire of Sagacity. Eery correlation?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2012 6:42:52 GMT
Were, I have gotten two sapphires and no bur races since the bur drop rate was corrected. Correlation does not equal proof, but it definitely shapes perception and I think that is what everyone is speaking from here.
I really want to say the current drop rate for bur subs is unfair because that is how I feel, but honestly I think it is probably about right, unless you wanted to make a project of analyzing the power of a given bur sub to the power of any given bur.
The people who played a lot while the drop rate was high should simply count themselves as lucky. I'll bring it up again- any possibility in the future of being able to trade in 3 'used' bur subs for 1 unused one of the players choice? That would seem provide some parity between those who have a ton because they played when they were dropping a lot, and those that have very few because they weren't playing much in that time frame. I would definitely trade half-fiend, erinyes, and shard for HC without even thinking twice about it.
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Post by gandoron on Jan 13, 2012 20:24:05 GMT
Hmm, so if the 7 "most recent" bur books had a 7x drop rate within the bur category.
137 burs (bur books counting as 1) 25 bur subs
There were 18 bur subs before the 7 came in, so instead of have a 1/137 weight, the bur sub group would have a weight of (18+7*7)/25 = 2.68. Then the real chance to get a bur book was about 2.68/139.68. with the 7 new races being 7x as likely as the others.
So if the new chance is at 1/137, I do think having at least 2 would be reasonable and still lower than the earlier rate chance.
Is that correct math? (This math assumes that all other burs maintained a standard 1, weight)
-G
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