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Post by maljin on Jan 17, 2012 12:11:45 GMT
When I hit 60 with my first characters every step (in terms of spell dc or whatever defines your build) was exactly of the same value. So for my shifter grabbing some bur bracers with one phys imm stripped but +14 wis on a Rona run was exactly the same as getting a wis arty, +2 from becoming a demi god or reading an anarch book (it was a doppelganger back then).
I don't see how missing any of these would break a build. If you're going by the logic that you're not contributing to a party if you miss the +2 wis/cha/int from a bur subby, what makes you think you're contributing missing demi stats, ego items and artifacts?
Whether you get +2 from a bur book first, then equip a +14 item, then demi stats (even twice), then an artifact, followed by finding an ego item or some other means, isn't really relevant.
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Post by m3chladon on Jan 17, 2012 12:16:15 GMT
When I hit 60 with my first characters every step (in terms of spell dc or whatever defines your build) was exactly of the same value. So for my shifter grabbing some bur bracers with one phys imm stripped but +14 wis on a Rona run was exactly the same as getting a wis arty, +2 from becoming a demi god or reading an anarch book (it was a doppelganger back then). I don't see how missing any of these would break a build. If you're going by the logic that you're not contributing to a party if you miss the +2 wis/cha/int from a bur subby, what makes you think you're contributing missing demi stats, ego items and artifacts? Whether you get +2 from a bur book first, then equip a +14 item, then demi stats (even twice), then an artifact, followed by finding an ego item or some other means, isn't really relevant. Then why do people spend billions on subraces if it isn't even relevant? Sorry but that post made me laugh, no offense but it warrants no weight. A person with 1 super arm is still a person with 1 arm, he built on a crippled foundation by starting out without everything in place.
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Post by Shakua on Jan 17, 2012 12:16:52 GMT
Your pulling your weight reguardless of subrace. its a party game. Everyone is "useful". Yes , bur subs are a stepping stone but seriously cut the crap that your getting dragged if you don't have one.
"I joined this server to pull my weight and have a healthy run at making it to the top, what I got was a bunch of pros living off noobs finding ego items and ignoring request to join partys unless they made a slave bard or zombie cleric." <- your going get this reguardless
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Post by Raj on Jan 17, 2012 12:24:24 GMT
The day you'll get a bur subbie to remake one of your casters you'll lack demi stats, and a ego item, and a asmo arti, and a abyssal vestige, and whatever uber piece of lucky randomized bur so you're still going to enter this race with a supposedly sprained ankle. It's all about character progression if you ask me, don't refrain from joining runs only because you don't feel complete; afterall you are here since many months but invested so much time for so little gain that it should ring a bell. A demi iteration on a UR subbie is worth more than a BUR subbie, the same if you can gear up properly ( no way a pw AA is dieing so fast w/o proper gear, and that kobold sd ab is so damn low, with a bur you're getting at best 3 more and it would still be incredibly sad ) and you're giving up on a lot of tagging and set loot just playing oinos over and over; if you share the wealth between you and your 2 mates on any run you end with truly good chances to always end with top picks. Then why do people spend billions on subraces if it isn't even relevant? Sorry but that post made me laugh, no offense but it warrants no weight. A person with 1 super arm is still a person with 1 arm, he built on a crippled foundation by starting out without everything in place. If there was a wearable EGO item on auction I'd gladly spend 10-20 or even more ( asking for a loan or selling something i own^^ ) billions for it; if they put demigod iterations for sale I'd even buy more of those, just because I can. That doesn't mean I feel gimped for not having more of everything on all my builds; if you feel so, I'd be happy to point out you lack of a arti/ego/10x demi as soon as I see you finally on a run with your bur race and see if that will make you go back farm oinos j/k
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Post by m3chladon on Jan 17, 2012 12:34:15 GMT
Your pulling your weight reguardless of subrace. its a party game. Everyone is "useful". Yes , bur subs are a stepping stone but seriously cut the crap that your getting dragged if you don't have one. "I joined this server to pull my weight and have a healthy run at making it to the top, what I got was a bunch of pros living off noobs finding ego items and ignoring request to join partys unless they made a slave bard or zombie cleric." <- your going get this reguardless Your under the impression that I don't have BURs, I currently have 11 of them, and 2 stored. It's not me that has a problem with me, it's the fact of how incredibly difficult it was to acquire what I did get. The system is to harsh on newer players for BUR books. I was once told that certain BURs are just entirely out of reach to new players unless you trade ridiculously well for them. Why is it that everyone has tons of BURs to trade and the people who are farming them have to scrape Hades for them? The whole "We fixed a thing about people getting tons of BUR books, and now no one gets them but 1/5000 bur drop the book they want. Have fun new players." is complete crap. Because of that scenario gear should be more rare then subraces. It's simply unfair to flood something to people and then take it away and let the people who were fortunate enough to be around during the floodfest to dangle it about while new players have to grovel for a brownie. Harsh tone aside, BUR books need to drop more. It's like there isn't a big poll at the top of this thread or something. I'd be happy to point out you lack of a arti/ego/10x demi as soon as I see you finally on a run with your bur race and see if that will make you go back farm oinos j/k I have all those besides the demi. And my farming has paid off, but I simply think it strays people from staying on this server due to it being just that difficult, I'm not most people and most will not bother farming themselves up. You'll just end up with weekender players that mossy around and you'll sometimes get that bard/druid/cleric you need from them but players who truly want to excel in all aspects will get bored of the ridiculous drop rate for BUR subraces and just quit. You guys act like I'm making this up, 4 of my friends quit because of this. 4 less people that stayed with this server because they are good gamers but simply got discouraged because they can't even get a good starter BUR. Brothers about on the door out if we can't get a snag at Half-celestial soon, we figured if we offered like 5 crucibles and spell pen artifact we might be able to get a shot at HC, but it's looking like it won't go down like that. If my brother quits because he can't make an effective turner, I'm done as well. BUR subraces are just in a silly place now.
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Post by Shakua on Jan 17, 2012 12:52:08 GMT
you should make up your mind what your fighting for , cause all your previous arguments was " we should get bur subs cause my ur subs suck and im getting dragged if i play them"
and i wasnt under the impression of anything other then your lack of knowledge.
you should bother counting other players post "relevant" to the issue also if they have something to say.
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Post by m3chladon on Jan 17, 2012 13:01:17 GMT
you should make up your mind what your fighting for , cause all your previous arguments was " we should get bur subs cause my ur subs suck and im getting dragged if i play them" and i wasnt under the impression of anything other then your lack of knowledge. you should bother counting other players post "relevant" to the issue also if they have something to say. Now your just coming off as mad. You engaged me so you got the debating end of it. It's a poll thread about an issue and I'm getting my point across. Since it's still not landing and you seem to be more dwelling on me then the actual point of this thread you should probably call it quits for now unless there is some glaring post I missed that you need to point out for me due to my lack of knowledge to better whatever point your trying to make of this whole back and forth conversation we are having. Have a lovely day.
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Post by Shakua on Jan 17, 2012 13:07:39 GMT
oh no im not mad at all . been having fun on my tia run . your the one that got off with your long post of ur subraces that you think are failing. I only responded to that aspect.
and threats to the server that "if i dont get so and so item, me and my friends are leaving" dont work. Server is constantly a work in progress to balance things. Sub-races got balanced and will be balanced again due to the low drop rate (probably but not until after paragon areas drop)
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Post by Raj on Jan 17, 2012 13:19:18 GMT
4 less people that stayed with this server because they are good gamers but simply got discouraged because they can't even get a good starter BUR. Brothers about on the door out if we can't get a snag at Half-celestial soon, we figured if we offered like 5 crucibles and spell pen artifact we might be able to get a shot at HC, but it's looking like it won't go down like that. If my brother quits because he can't make an effective turner, I'm done as well. BUR subraces are just in a silly place now. Bye. Seriously, there's no thing about a 'starter' BUR, if you and your bros are leaving because of the silly idea you can't have fun without a great subrace I pity you; I suppose you're not giving much value to the words of people who already own those races but you're here since way less than what it took to me to get my first H-C and are already speaking about leaving, without having attempted those runs where you are ''supposed'' to rely on BUR stats ( big fail argument btw, read my example about the FA cleric pulling his weight and being demi/abo/ely/abyss tagged in one month ). Otoh, you're doing it wrong, nobody needs 5 crucibles; there're not many spare HC books around ( I know of 3 people with spares ) and those aren't going for anything that's not a good ego/a good new subrace/some valuabe set loot you're not going to get out of oinos.
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Post by Torin on Jan 17, 2012 13:27:06 GMT
Hm...Looking at the result of the poll I get the feeling that the drop rate should be increased a few. And more important: Maybe some change in the game rules like "no second book to upgrade" or ...well .... here and there are some good suggestions. Hidden behind long other text....
Edit: I wonder if I could change my vote...trying...nope. (would have been from "leave it like it is" to "a bit more frequiently")
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Post by Werehound Silverfang on Jan 17, 2012 14:32:29 GMT
When I hit 60 with my first characters every step (in terms of spell dc or whatever defines your build) was exactly of the same value. So for my shifter grabbing some bur bracers with one phys imm stripped but +14 wis on a Rona run was exactly the same as getting a wis arty, +2 from becoming a demi god or reading an anarch book (it was a doppelganger back then). I don't see how missing any of these would break a build. If you're going by the logic that you're not contributing to a party if you miss the +2 wis/cha/int from a bur subby, what makes you think you're contributing missing demi stats, ego items and artifacts? Whether you get +2 from a bur book first, then equip a +14 item, then demi stats (even twice), then an artifact, followed by finding an ego item or some other means, isn't really relevant. Then why do people spend billions on subraces if it isn't even relevant? Sorry but that post made me laugh, no offense but it warrants no weight. A person with 1 super arm is still a person with 1 arm, he built on a crippled foundation by starting out without everything in place. It's not that it's not relevant; it just doesn't define your ability to play effectively. And the argument that you need one to succeed is just stupid anyway; Vets couldn't even buy one before entering the hells when they first came out. We were forced to do everything "impossibly", or without BUR subraces, until they dropped. They didn't even all come out at once, so we couldn't decide "I'm not playing XX until i get a YY" because YY didn't exist. We've proven we could do it; why do you feel it's unfair that new players don't have all the ones they want? How has it become so impossibly ingrained that you need a BUR subrace to succeed here? It simply isn't true.
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Post by kralex on Jan 17, 2012 14:55:35 GMT
Here's my pet peeve again, though I'm sounding like a broken record.
The upgrade cost at reinc is terrible. I think it really, really should go.
Currently if you make a toon with anything less than a BUR subrace, it simply means you pay another books later on when you upgrade, and eventually you will want to. The new improved rarity of BUR races made it all the more desirable to avoid the upgrade cost.
When a new player ask me for advice, the best advice I can honestly give is: Get some BUR subrace, any BUR subrace, and make toons only with that one. Reinc them to the BUR subrace you actually want for that build when you get the subrace.
I wish I could tell them: Grab UR subraces in the market, they are dirt cheap, play the toons you enjoy playing, and when you get a suitable BUR subrace for your build sometime later, just reinc to it.
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Post by Torin on Jan 17, 2012 15:04:47 GMT
I'm with Kralex.
I have all UR and all (old) BUR races. BUT I have never upgraded any of my builds. That says much.
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Post by Werehound Silverfang on Jan 17, 2012 15:12:43 GMT
I'm with Kralex. I have all UR and all (old) BUR races. BUT I have never upgraded any of my builds. That says much. Not when weighed against the many that did.
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Post by madzapper on Jan 17, 2012 15:34:04 GMT
We've proven we could do it; why do you feel it's unfair that new players don't have all the ones they want? How has it become so impossibly ingrained that you need a BUR subrace to succeed here? Hiya Werehound! I'm treading as lightly on this topic as I possibly can. Please forgive me if I say something that seems out of line. First, I just want to point out that the +14 gear, int/char/wis arti, bur subrace, etc.. really refers to the potential for the toon. It doesn't make sense to me to argue that a UR tier with +14 gear is the same as a BUR tier because the BUR tier will find the +14 gear eventually. The end potential of the UR tier will always be less than the BUR tier. That is, unless someone can make the argument that the dc/ab/ac caps out and both UR and BUR are capable of hitting the cap. Everyone also knows that dc/ab/ac are not the only reason to get ahold of a BUR tier... Some of them have wings! You can get an int/cha/wis arti somewhere down the line, so you can pick up the +2 Wis whenever you get the arti. When you get brave enough you can go through and become demi. Isn't it true that when demi, different spawns happen, penalties increase? If so, all things being equal (gear/arti/etc) then the UR will likely feel it worse than the BUR. The thing is, building your toon as a noob, you still probably don't care, because eventually you'll get to BUR tier through reincarnation. But then that's where it all seems to fall apart. The chance that you are going to be able to upgrade to the BUR tier during reincarnation is shot. You will need two books and if you cannot get one book, and by all accounts what has been said is that it could take years to get one book, the likelihood to get two is slim or non-existent. I'm not saying this is the case, only that it's what someone can take away from the arguments. Now the above argument probably never exists if reincarnation doesn't exist. However, it does, so it's part of toon construction strategy. Six months ago, two books definitely seemed doable. However, the drop rates changed and the prices shifted considerably. I'd say we're in sticker shock, but in all honesty, calls for some subraces just return dead air regardless the price yelled. If you told a new player that it costs 10 billion to upgrade from UR tier to BUR tier (plus tagged, of course), that is targetable and I bet less complaints than two H-C books that cost 2.5 billion, but are apparently unattainable. Because of the changes, the way a person builds his or her toons is going to be affected. You might be tempted to park toons at level 40, build the toons with non-standard subraces (i.e. the Wemic cleric), or not build toons at all, holding out until something comes your way. Or you might say screw it and build one anyways I'm not saying any of the above is the right way to go about things, but they are the arguments and the mindset as I see them. Cheers! Madzapper
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