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Post by Werehound Silverfang on Jan 17, 2012 15:40:58 GMT
We've proven we could do it; why do you feel it's unfair that new players don't have all the ones they want? How has it become so impossibly ingrained that you need a BUR subrace to succeed here? Hiya Werehound! I'm treading as lightly on this topic as I possibly can. Please forgive me if I say something that seems out of line. First, I just want to point out that the +14 gear, int/char/wis arti, bur subrace, etc.. really refers to the potential for the toon. It doesn't make sense to me to argue that a UR tier with +14 gear is the same as a BUR tier because the BUR tier will find the +14 gear eventually. The end potential of the UR tier will always be less than the BUR tier. That is, unless someone can make the argument that the dc/ab/ac caps out and both UR and BUR are capable of hitting the cap. Everyone also knows that dc/ab/ac are not the only reason to get ahold of a BUR tier... Some of them have wings! You can get an int/cha/wis arti somewhere down the line, so you can pick up the +2 Wis whenever you get the arti. When you get brave enough you can go through and become demi. Isn't it true that when demi, different spawns happen, penalties increase? If so, all things being equal (gear/arti/etc) then the UR will likely feel it worse than the BUR. The thing is, building your toon as a noob, you still probably don't care, because eventually you'll get to BUR tier through reincarnation. But then that's where it all seems to fall apart. The chance that you are going to be able to upgrade to the BUR tier during reincarnation is shot. You will need two books and if you cannot get one book, and by all accounts what has been said is that it could take years to get one book, the likelihood to get two is slim or non-existent. I'm not saying this is the case, only that it's what someone can take away from the arguments. Now the above argument probably never exists if reincarnation doesn't exist. However, it does, so it's part of toon construction strategy. Six months ago, two books definitely seemed doable. However, the drop rates changed and the prices shifted considerably. I'd say we're in sticker shock, but in all honesty, calls for some subraces just return dead air regardless the price yelled. If you told a new player that it costs 10 billion to upgrade from UR tier to BUR tier (plus tagged, of course), that is targetable and I bet less complaints than two H-C books that cost 2.5 billion, but are apparently unattainable. Because of the changes, the way a person builds his or her toons is going to be affected. You might be tempted to park toons at level 40, build the toons with non-standard subraces (i.e. the Wemic cleric), or not build toons at all, holding out until something comes your way. Or you might say screw it and build one anyways I'm not saying any of the above is the right way to go about things, but they are the arguments and the mindset as I see them. Cheers! Madzapper Mad, I agree with just about everything you say. Only a few notes: I never made the claim that a UR with +14 gear is the same as a BUR. I simply said both can be extraordinarily effective, and having the BUR isn't crucial to 1) not only surviving but 2) playing well. I'd argue that playing with the lower-tier races makes you a better player, while playing with the higher ones makes it easier to play your best. Additionally, this thread was about BUR Subrace Drop Rate, not reincarnation. Getting off topic, I'm all for removing the 2nd book requirement, though I feel it should be levied with something else, possibly at 15% experience penalty for two weeks if you upgraded tiers. I'd be fine with a larger penalty or for longer even. **EDIT** As a note I've been challenged to make an open subrace character and play on-par with BUR races. The challenge is made; I'll be creating her tonight. I'll catalog run data and let you know how it goes. I'll even play it Semi-HC and not xfer gear.
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Post by Lythe Featherblade on Jan 17, 2012 16:10:55 GMT
highergroundpoa.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=baseranger&action=display&thread=15948This build thread is a look into the past. My first BUR subrace was undying. I wanted wemic, but so did everyone else, so I managed to trade for Zenythri instead, and built my first Str ranger with a sub-par subrace. Timeline: first BUR subrace 8+ months after I registered on the boards (I started playing a while before then), 3rd character in the hells and I'd been as far as maladomini. Revision of build - it took me about 4 more months to actually get wemic, back when they were dropping a lot, because of popularity. And for the record (going by the screenshot), after 7+ months in the hells, focusing on a single character at a time I'm still wearing UR belt, rings, amulet?, boots, rona gloves. Armor if I remember correctly (can't go by screenshot) was Min set light armor. Far less than ideal gear, +14 stats and AC/immunity/stat boosts from randomized gear didn't exist yet. And I was not carried at any point. The first version didn't have a dev crit katana like rangers seem to want either, I made do without it. A UR race with +14 gear right now is much better off, and will have a much easier time. As a tank player, I'll say with +14 gear, you're on par or better as a UR now than a BUR then, and the bigger difference is the abundance of good UR rings and abundance of BUR rings, never mind the increased volume of loot, which will allow you to tweak immunities and survive a lot easier.
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Post by Raj on Jan 17, 2012 16:10:59 GMT
Ah don't waste your time, open-sub builds aren't the reality with today ur books market rate, no need to show good playing to those who don't get it.
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Post by buddhamind on Jan 17, 2012 16:22:17 GMT
Additionally, this thread was about BUR Subrace Drop Rate, not reincarnation. Getting off topic, I'm all for removing the 2nd book requirement, though I feel it should be levied with something else, possibly at 15% experience penalty for two weeks if you upgraded tiers. I'd be fine with a larger penalty or for longer even. I support the general idea presented here, but I think it needs to be flushed out a little more. A 15% XP penalty for two weeks seems low, and is not really relevant for most level 60s before PLs hit the shelves, which are typically sitting on millions of spare XP over 60. Here is how I would do it: - To upgrade from a lower race tier to a higher race tier, the toon must be tagged to the higher tier and possess a book (or "juice and candy," etc.) of the LOWER tier subrace.
- In addition, the toon must be the level required to use the higher tier subrace book (e.g. level 60 for BUR tier).
- After upgrading, the toon will suffer an additional ###% XP penalty for ### weeks.
- The old method, using the higher tier book, can still be used to prevent the XP penalty.
- For example, to upgrade from an open subrace to a BUR subrace, no additional book is required, but the open subrace toon must be level 60 and the account must be tagged for the desired BUR subrace.
- To upgrade from a UR subrace to a BUR subrace, the toon must be level 60 and the account must be tagged for the desired BUR subrace, and the toon must possess an additional book of their particular UR subrace.
Nobarian (UR) to Wemic (BUR) -- req. Nobarian book and XP penalty, or Wemic book with no XP penalty. Nereidkin (open) to Rad. Gen. (BUR) -- No requirements for XP penalty, or Rad. Gen book with no XP penalty. And some thoughts on the general discussion: - There is an enormous gap in price between UR and BUR subraces. The UR subraces are highly undervalued.
- If all other things are held equal, the power gap created by one's subrace choice (not just tier, mind) is not very high. In my experience, UR subraces do just about as well as BUR subraces for a particular class, build, gear setup, play style, etc.
- The class, build, and gear are drastically more important than the subrace. If you are playing a squishy toon with crap gear, upgrading your subrace is not going to help.
- All other things are not equal, though. New players do not have stockpiled gear and artifacts and other stuff, and so the actual power difference is very high. Unfortunately this power difference has been attributed almost entirely to one's subrace, which is only a small part of the equation.
- To throw even more fuel onto the fire, there are very few builds posted for UR and secret subraces. If someone gets a UR or secret sub, they look at it as worthless, because they don't see any builds posted for it. Adapting a BUR or even an open subrace build can be quite difficult.
The solution? Post more builds for UR and secret subs!
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Post by madzapper on Jan 17, 2012 16:33:14 GMT
I never made the claim that a UR with +14 gear is the same as a BUR. I simply said both can be extraordinarily effective, and having the BUR isn't crucial to 1) not only surviving but 2) playing well. I'd argue that playing with the lower-tier races makes you a better player, while playing with the higher ones makes it easier to play your best. I wasn't intending to target you directly, just the argument. I didn't make that clear, but should have. I consider myself spanked, but seriously it seems to me that reincarnation is part of the argument for drop rate and I did use "drop rates" in the text ;) I don't know about anyone else, but I wouldn't complain about an xp penalty. Especially if it's predictable. Sounds great! I think playing HC for a while is a great way to improve play style. I have two HC toons I've slowly been working on. It's a solitary world filled with courage, sweat, and tears for me. Happy Hunting ~ Madzapper
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Post by Enius the White on Jan 17, 2012 16:56:33 GMT
Randomization was good for new players as it allowed them earlier access to cheap, slightly gimped BURs. We've all heard this, and it's true. Poorer BURs are as cheap as dirt now. The flip side is that the resulting power creep for vets has been astonishing. Tia staves are now "backup" gear for vets, behind exceptionally randomized UR staves with huge level 9 slots (multiplied for Sorcs), and properties like 90% acid immunity added. And those are the UR items (no BUR staves). Having several (or all) exceptional BURs geared at once pushes individual player power off the charts, especially defensively (opening up huge non-gear offensive opportunities). Now add vestiges, and put a party together with these players, and the developers may have a problem keeping this group challenged. This is where the lack of "earning it" comes into play, not with new players trying to enter the huge end-game across the widest player (new-vet) power gap ever.
The wider than ever player power gap need not be a bad thing. My 140 million xp Wiz is still fighting to improve, and every new item that he finds holds the remote promise of doing just that. Keeping vets interested is a good thing.
The down side of the wider than ever player power gap is, of course, how newer players feel about it. M3chladon has expressed those concerns well. For what it's worth, M3chladon reminds me of how I remember Werehound, when he fist came to HG. Skilled, systematic, and prepared to overcome any reasonable hurdles to fully experience the amazing end game here. The stark difference is access to the BUR subby foundation, that players build on. Many good players, that stay, want those 5 or 6 BUR subs/classes so that they can help to fill runs. It's the best way that a new player can really be "the hero": fill a run by bringing that needed class, getting the vets out of the workshop! Regardless of gear, or experience, you've won the battle for access, and the learning can really begin. This is the key vector to the end-game that has been virtually eliminated. Players will not normally build/take 6 different UR classes into the end-game. Non of us ever did.
And anyone that claims that this thread is "whining", needs to remember how this issue came about in the first place. It was a few vets whining pathetically about how "I don't get paid enough when I sell my BUR books", that directly lead to the drop rate change.
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Post by m3chladon on Jan 17, 2012 17:10:18 GMT
On a different note, real quick would like to apologize to Shakua. I really mean it, I took my words a little to harshly at you, it's more venting then at you really sorry that I did it to you.
@ Werehound, I was just venting and being frustrated with a really big dry spell in Oinos. Really focus on playing your characters you enjoy and being a great DM. You need prove nothing I know your reputation I'm sorry for rattling the cage.
I'm going to get setup for Hell running with my brother and just play the server how everyone else does. Rajah and Lythe been trying to get us to just join hell runs and I've been too obsessed with Oinos in an unhealthy way.
This server somehow really sunk itself into me, it's just got a spark I truly enjoy and it's why I can get overly expressive.
It's been a long night and I really hope to better the clouding I've put up. I'm not a DM or a developer and if the way things are are truly meant to be then I'll cope and buckle up for the ride.
This really is a great server, and the community really puts the shine on it.
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Post by kralex on Jan 17, 2012 17:14:30 GMT
Additionally, this thread was about BUR Subrace Drop Rate, not reincarnation. Getting off topic, ... I think the two issues are closely related, as the current reincarnation systems makes new players want to get BUR subraces at any cost, making the greatly reduced drop rate all the more painful for them. If they could upgrade for free (or with an XP penalty, which also seems be more plausible to me from an in-game perspective), the current very inflexible demand for BUR races would be relaxed a lot.
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Post by shardelay on Jan 17, 2012 18:24:42 GMT
So the current plan is to increase XR drops massively for the first few weeks of EE's so that all the current half-celestials can stockpile all the new XR subbies, and then drop the rate once the peasants enter EE's so everyone can laugh at the poor BUR builds and drag them!!
Joking aside, here are a few insights (via a server balancing perspective) from the viewpoint from someone who takes part in the balance discussions with the rest of the admin team. The goal of much of the balancing is the health of the server.
Assuming that gameplay itself is fun, I believe in 2 very important parts of keeping players intersted in an MMORPG (or NWN persistent world) and encouraging long-term retention.
1) Keeping goals for players - this means always having a better item/tag/subrace/accomplishment to reach for. i.e. "maxing" a toon is a very difficult and long process. Carrots taste good.
2) Keeping all parts of the mod as relavant and playable as possible to both optimize dev time (by not forcing massive periodic content releases) and keep lower level game play active for new players to join and become engaged with. Old carrots are still nourishing.
There is alot more to it than those 2 points, but they cover the meat of it.
# 1 is vital because once someone has a maxed character, they have "won" the mod and they loose interest and will likely quit. This is, by definition, bad for player retention and must be fought at all costs. Randomized loot, Legendary and soon paragon levels, BUR subrace rarity, artifacts, demi itterations, and tag bonus's are some of the ways we make maxing a toon difficult. Making BUR toons truely rare is one of the carrots that helps with this (although for a long time that carrot was broken. The same carrot eventually get's stale when you keep eating it over and over again due to oversupply.)
One of the ways we encourage people to keep the entire mod relavant (#2) is via our class balancing. Getting the balance correct means that there are MANY different builds that are all viable and different, giving a completely different gaming experience. This helps us with both the above stated goals. It takes the "maxed out" character and gives it an entire other itteration of the game to play. And, while playing that new character, it rejuvinates the lower level game play and keeps the mod more populated for new players. Considernig that building MANY toons is a vital part of our game outlook, there is not much of a problem with leveling a open or UR toon to get a BUR sub and then makign a NEW toon with that bur sub and playing both of them. This fits nicely wtih stated goals 1 and 2.
I'll add to the above a FACT that many on this thread seem to be attempting to argue as an opinion. An open subrace toon (and therefore secret, and UR) can all perform perfectly fine in the hells. A UR is not as good as a BUR by approx 2 stat pts and 1 feat (though that varies considerably depending on the subrace comparisons). These are FACTS. As an absolute FACT hells were conquered in a more difficult form, w/out BUR subs, w/out +14 gear, w/out ego dc modding items, w/out any demi itterations, w/out pom/uro/etc... gear, and w/out randomized up loot. I personally have demi'd open, secret, and UR subs. (arctic dwarf tin can, Illithid PM, Dragonblooded STr BFM, and Lycan rogue) before +14s, before +dc items, with no demi itterations, etc... My pm is still an illithid and rdy for nessus again. I'll happily run him w/out fear of being dragged in any nessus run.
Because of the FACT that an open/secret/UR sub toon can demi w/out being drug and can participate, we have the situation where a new player, with a new toon, has the ability to acquire BUR books and demi iterations and then use that BUR book to build a new character. This satisfies goals 1 and 2.
Some perspective on reinc - Reinc is NOT a tool for upgrading subraces. Reinc exists purely as an acknowledgement that as the server changes class balance and skills, time spent leveling a character can turn out to have been ill spent due to reasons beyond a players control. i.e. they got nerfed. Reinc is a tool to allow the players to reclaim time spent on a toon that was nerfed. Subrace upgrades were a solution to a potential exploit and a bonus given to players at the time. I like the bonus and i would argue to keep it, but I can see solid arguments that reinc should never allow a subraces upgrade to begin with.
The issue from this thread is one that is well understood and the question is not new. Is rarity tuned correctly? If the argument is that it is too rare, then one needs to convince from a game balance point of view that is the case.
The arguments that I see failing are:
1) I can't get a starter BUR. Bogus - BUR's are tasty frosted carrots. You want a starter bur? Tough. 2) I can't participate in runs w/out a BUR. Bogus - It is a documentable FACT that non-BUR subs can participate and be valuable in a run. I have done it myself and I have parsed many individuals. I agree with other's comments about skill and build, I'd FAR prefer to have a good player with a good build on an open or UR sub, than a bad player and a poor build on a BUR. IT'S NOT EVEN CLOSE. 3) We are bifurcating the community into a population of haves versus have nots. Bogus - Haves vs have nots is exactly what is required for point #1 of balance. If time spent doesn't equate to more rewards then less time becomes more rewards and therefore max'd toons can be obtained quickly and therefore people will quit. Have vs have not as a function of PLAYTIME is necessary for server health. 4) It was broken for a while, and that gives an unfair advantage to older players, so we must leave it here. Bogus- that's a short path to server death and an artificial handcuff on the world builders. We can wish that we had made a correction SOONER and we can wish that the problem was less pronounced, but any solution that involves ignoring the problem just makes it worse and is poor policy. Mistakes must be corrected, regardless of how long they have persisted. Yes, it's a bummer, but it's not a game ending bummer.
Potentially good arguments are: 1) All the above is well and good, but 1 BUR sub per n hours is just simply too rare as a comparison to EGO items, Demi itterations, planewalker rings, and other items if similiar power. - OK, talk to me here. I can listen to this. Rarity does NOT need to move in a nice smooth function relative to power, but it should be sensible. My gut is that this might be a little low right now, but that XR subs and EE's and Paragon levels will likely help and that therefore no chagnes should be made til we can see that effect. I also fundamentally like the idea of obscenely rare things that most people will NOT get (not that BUR subs fit this category), so principly rarity i do not see as a bad thing as long as there aer other less rare carrots. (I don't need the mithril alloy carrot to keep me well fed when I have 14 tiers of iron carrot left to consume).
I hope anyone who wants to contribute to this discussion has read this, because w/out understanding these principles and incorporating them into your suggestions, these theads, while entertaining, won't have the impact to engender any change and will only piss people off.
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Post by kralex on Jan 17, 2012 19:15:42 GMT
Some perspective on reinc - Reinc is NOT a tool for upgrading subraces. Here I disagree. It certainly is, the way reincarnation is implemented. It may not have been intended to be, but that does not change the fact that this exactly what it is used for. Of course you can argue that the problems players experience in abusing reinc in this way are their own damn problems, but that won't stop threads like this one. Of course you can argue that these threads are likewise their own damn problem. Yet I think that it would be better for game experience to implement a feature like reinc in a way that doesn't create major problems down the road, like the perceived need to create only BUR characters.
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Post by Yojimbo on Jan 17, 2012 19:28:22 GMT
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Post by shardelay on Jan 17, 2012 19:29:26 GMT
Some perspective on reinc - Reinc is NOT a tool for upgrading subraces. Here I disagree. It certainly is, the way reincarnation is implemented. It may not have been intended to be, but that does not change the fact that this exactly what it is used for. I agree that this is the way reinc is being used today, but that is exactly why my comment is relavant. It allows you to put into perspective a game feature - and that perspective helps you weigh pro's and con's and put into perspective the changes propose3d. Reinc was not intended as a tool to upgrade toons. It was intended as a tool to fix toons broken by server changes. The fact that it has an additional value beyond the original intention means that arguments about BUR rarity centering around reinc cost are less compelling to me. An argument to change the rarity of a drop to allow a side perk of a core feature to become cheaper is not convincing to me. It is just a straight up argument for a power increase. Remember, there are two different things this thread is considering that are similiar but distinct. 1) rarity of BURs 2) cost of upgrading subraces To argue that the cost is too much, I think we need to first determine what the right cost is and why, then compare that to the current cost. Just sayign it's too high because it used to be cheaper is not sufficient, especially in the situation where it used to be a very very expensive side benefit and was tuned with that cost in mind. There are a lot of strong world building arguments for why a server would want to have a lot of varied subraces at all times so an argument to redcue cost of upgrading has to be especialyl compelling because it has the effect of reducing diversity - which is bad.
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Post by jazzadellic on Jan 17, 2012 22:23:58 GMT
I've been playing on here for roughly 2+ years, and you have more BUR subs then I do, and if I'm not mistaken you've only been playing on here a few months? (just guessing because I know I just noticed you and your "crew" in recent months). And trust me I've played way more hours than you. I've also seen you hawking egos and crucibles on the market channel. I've been trying to get a crucible for 2.5 years, no luck. I found my first ego item like a month ago, and it was a crappy useless one anyways. So why are you complaining? You've acquired more loot and BUR subs than someone who has been playing daily for over 2 years.
You and your crew seem obsessed with BUR subs, they really aren't as important as you have made them to be in your mind. You should just enjoy this GREAT mod that has been created and stop obsessing on subraces. Despite all of your arguments, you are WRONG, you CAN and people HAVE made effective toons out of even the lowest tier of subraces. You simply haven't learned the finer points of how the game works, as Shak gracefully, and kindly pointed out to you before you started flaming him. Your arguments only show your lack of knowledge and stubborness (since you won't listen to the PRO advice you were given).
Honestly....they were dumb to quit over that issue, since it is not BUR subs that make this mod so much fun.
I'd gladly trade you HC for even 1 crucible (last I heard crucibles sell for more than HC) but like most people I don't have a HC book laying around. Hell if I could trade you an HC for a crucible, I might even re-sell the crucible and buy a few HCs. If your brother quits because he didn't get a HC sub....that is just silly immaturity. If you guys are so obssessed over BUR subs that you are "threatening" to quit over the issue, then you should all just quit now, cuz your whining is just silly and the devs aren't going to redesign the game to keep whiners from quitting. Instead of obsessing on BUR subraces, you should just focus on learning how to play the game. A person playing an open sub who knows what to do on a run to be effective and keep the team alive is worth 10x more than a person playing a BUR sub with all the best gear that doesn't know what the heck they are doing, and by your own comments you have shown that you don't know what the heck you are doing. Honestly your guys real problem is that you are too GREEDY, all you care about is getting the premium loot and you want it NOW, and all your enjoyment of the game is tied to that. That's sad. Haven't you ever heard the saying "It's not the destination, it's the journey." ? Good advice for you.
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Post by Enius the White on Jan 18, 2012 21:27:15 GMT
Thanks for outlining your decision making framework a bit Shardelay. I scanned through the thread again to summarize some points that seem to fall under your "Potentially good arguments", both for and against the current drop rate:
For:
- Players will loose interest if they do not "earn" each subby. Currently, this is done, on average, via 130 hell runs or weeks of farming. No evidence or anecdotes have emerged to corroborate the benefit of this degree of "earning". Every vet posting here progressed, and stayed, under very different conditions. In practice, getting books through charity is now more valuable and common than ever.
Against:
- the drop rate is lower than ever before. No one can say that "it's been done like this before".
- the resulting widespread advice is now for newer players to solo farm LL runs, then buy, instead of trying to earn BUR books by partying. Consequences?
- since players have never built 5 or 6 different classes of UR sub end-game toons, new players will now spend much longer with fewer end-game classes. Consequences to run formation?
- shifts in server player demographics (e.g. no more BUR book demand from vets) indicate a lower price for BUR books, not a higher price.
- BUR books are now disproportionately valuable compared to UR books, feeding/supporting the perception (right or wrong) that they are way, way more valuable. e.g. who wants to use a 10 million gold subby when others are using 1000 million gold subby.
- BUR books are "Beyond Ultra Rare", just as other BURs are "Beyond Ultra Rare". Why impose a higher price only on BUR books? Should players not "earn" other BURs?
- BUR books are consumable, unlike regular BURs.
- If the drop rate reduction ends up acting as a deterrent to some new players progressing to the end game, then the policy becomes a catastrophic self-defeating failure.
- Please try reading jazzadellic's comments (right above this post) from the view of a new player, recognizing what they can be faced with. Those comments are aimed at a group of new player who by all accounts are doing everything that they can to become productive, long term end-game players. We have to recognize that while the HG community as a whole is excellent and supportive of new players, some "not so supportive players" do exist. It only takes one "not so supportive player" to spoil the whole game for many new players. Giving new players what they feel they need to tolerate and defend against those "not so supportive players" is, in my view, a valid consideration.
As a quick quantitative reference on the comparative "realized price" front, here are the last 2 Subby books (one BUR, one UR) to go through the auction today:
Book of Races, Maelephant Sold 1,500,500,501 2012-01-24 17:59:59 Book of Races, Whisper Gnome Unsold 15,100,100 2012-01-24 19:37:46
No bid for the UR book at 100th the price of the BUR.
Hope that helps a bit.
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Post by uncanny on Jan 18, 2012 22:13:50 GMT
Nicely said Enius.. I would also add that the price differential for -any- BUR piece of kit is significantly lower. I just bought a well randomized Pyro flow (no restrictions, all stats boosted, but same ac) for 90 million gold. Compared to a nicely random Orb of Osirus at 20million that sold a few days ago; it's about 1/5. Races more value ok I guess (you can't trade once used, or swap to other accounts though). But 1/100?
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