Subrace suggestions

[FunkySwerve]

We will be implementing subraces soon, and I wanted to give you all an opportunity to suggest any you'd like to see, stats and background.

Best,
Funky

[hfb]

Greetings,

1. General question: what do you have in mind by the term "subrace"?

2. More specifically (if possibly way off target): Might we have some parameters within which to work? For example:
Will there be different color wheels for skin/hair?
Will extraordinary/spell like abilities be available?
Will racial hindrances (light-blindness et. al.) be available?
Will ability score racial bonuses be modified?
Will animations/skins/etc. change?
Will there be an "E.C.L." aspect? (Effective Character Level--balancing constants)
Will there be modifications in preferred classes?
Will there be bonus proficiency/feat/skill potential?

Introducing subraces that already exist in the world makes the most thematic sense to me.
For example:
Elf with Shadow, Drow, Male and Drow, Female
1/2 Elf with Drey
Dwarf with Dreugar (spelling)

To broaden the theme, IMHO, sticking with Faerun-esque races would go best with the other elements from HG--Zhents, Harpers, Menzoberanzan-style Drow, etc.

Total side note: making the Fey available as (sub) races would be very cool (Koreds, Atomies, Quicklings, etc).

Also, I have a pretty decent collection of pnp resources, let me know if you would like me to do some digging for specific racial data/bkgd/modifiers etc.

In any case, this is a whole new layer of complexity to contemplate and anticipate. Thanks.

The Dancer

[FunkySwerve]

I'll take the questions one at a time. We could do most of this stuff, but I plan something simpler, at least to start.

hfb said:

Will there be different color wheels for skin/hair?

No. You can do this yourself with the character extender, available on the vault. It is consequently not worth the extra time it would take to set up.

Will extraordinary/spell like abilities be available?

Maybe, but probably not. I need to explore the subrace system I'm using a bit more to find out if this is still possible (a recent Bioware patch really screwed it up).

Will racial hindrances (light-blindness et. al.) be available?

No. Two reasons. First, I think that most subraces
that need/would benefit from such a system are more monster-like than player-like. I really don't intend for there to be vampire and werewolf subraces. Subterranean races like the drow and duergar are the exception, but reason 2 comes in to play there: more work than its worth. I don 't think these nuances enhance play enough to be worth scripting.

Will ability score racial bonuses be modified?

Yes, as far as I'm concerned this is the major purpose of selecting a subrace. The bonuses will be 'real', permanent changes that don't factor into the +12 limit on stat boosts (just like racial bonuses are now).

Will animations/skins/etc. change?

No, same reasons as for racial hindrances above.

Will there be an "E.C.L." aspect? (Effective Character Level--balancing constants)

No, unless spell like abilities DO wind up getting used, and probably not even then. More effort/trouble than its worth - which is a way of saying its not worth much at all in the system I'm planning.

Will there be modifications in preferred classes?

I hope so. Need to fiddle with the system so more to know if this is possible for sure.

Will there be bonus proficiency/feat/skill potential?

Hmm. Again, maybe. Not that important to me personally but I see it as falling into the same basket as stat changes. If I can pull it off with relative ease, then yes.

To summarize, focus on these things in your subrace descriptions:
Background
Stats +/-s - everything below this line is uncertain
Preferred class
Bonus proficiencies/feats/skill points
Spell abilities - unlikely, and most subraces should not have anyway

Best,
Funky

[hfb]

Thank you for the detailed response. I will be hitting the books here in the next couple to see what they have to offer that fits nicely with your parameters. This is really quite neato, truth be told.

Cheers,
The Dancer

[FunkySwerve]

Update:
There will be appearance modifications ranging from added wings/total appearance shift, if the subrace calls for it.
There will be alterations to preferred classes.
There will be added feats/skills.

I'm currently wrestling with a minor problem in the system, or it would be ready already. The command that locates the correct character file to modify doesnt work correctly unless the system is set up initially with an empty server vault. Since I remain committed to doing no more character vault purges, I am currently doing sommersaults to avoid that problem. Whatever happens, we will not be purging the vault.

Funky

[hfb]

Funky,

I put spell like abilities in brackets for easy deletion.
I put in notes for things that may be too powerful (SR, DR, Armor bonuses etc.).
I suggested that ECL work like the xp penatly for "improper" multi-classing (viability unknown).
I suggested that "light-blindness" be a flat -2 penatly on everything when outdoors (viability of applying the dusting of drow weapons to the reduction of their abilities unknown).
The planetouched and "half" races are assumed (by me) to be subraces of Humans.

Anyway, I put together the following list of Faerun subraces:
____________

Shield Dwarf : Standard Dwarf

Gold Dwarf :
+2 Constitution, -2 Dexterity
+1 attack against aberrations (rather than standard offensive training)
Otherwise same as standard dwarf

Gray Dwarf : Deep Dwarf, Grey Dwarf, Duergar, and Dark Dwarf
+2 Constitution, -4 Charisma
Immunity to paralysis, phantasms, and magic or alchemical poisons (but not natural ones)
+4 racial bonus on Move Silently checks
+1 racial bonus on Listen and Spot checks
Sensitive to bright light – perhaps –2 to everything while outdoors if that is easiest to script
[Invisibility Spell-Like Ability, 1/day]
ECL +2 – scripted as 20% xp penalty perhaps
Moon Elf : Standard Elf

Sun Elf :
+2 Intelligence, -2 Constitution
Otherwise same as Moon/Standard Elf

Wild Elf : Barbaric / uncivilized jungle dwellers (Celts under and in the canopy)
+2 Dexterity, -2 Intelligence
Favored Class: Sorcerer

Wood Elf : Also known as Green Elf and Forest Elf
+2 Strength, +2 Dexterity,
-2 Constitution, -2 Intelligence,
-2 Charisma
Favored Class: Ranger

Drow Elf :
+2 Dexterity, -2 Constitution,
+2 Intelligence, +2 Charisma
+2 racial bonus on Will saves against spells and spell-like abilities
Dark vision
Sensitive to bright light – perhaps –2 to everything while outdoors if that is easiest to script
[Spell Resistance –possibly too powerful]
[Darkness spell-like ability, 1/day ]
ECL +2 – scripted as 20% xp penalty perhaps

Half Drow : as standard ½ elf
Dark vision

Rock Gnome : Standard Gnome

Svirfneblin
-2 Strength, +2 Dexterity,
+2 Wisdom, -4 Charisma
+4 dodge bonus against all creatures (No special bonus against giants) –possibly too powerful
+2 racial bonuses on all saving throws
+2 racial bonuses on Hide checks
Dark vision
Spell Resistance –possibly too powerful
Stone cunning
[Blindness Spell-Like Ability, 1/day]
ECL +3 –scripted as a 30% xp penalty perhaps

Aasimar – Plane touched: Celestial
+2 Wisdom and +2 Charisma
5/- Damage resistance against Acid, Cold, and Electricity
+2 bonus to Listen and Spot
Dark vision
Quick to Master, 1 Skill Point per Level
[Innate spell ability: Light, cast at character level, 1/day]
Favored Class: Paladin
ECL +1 –scripted as a 10% xp penalty perhaps

Tiefling – Plane touched: Infernal
+2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence, -2 Charisma
5/- Damage Resistance against Fire, Cold, and Electricity
+2 bonus to Persuade and Hide
Dark vision
Quick to Master, 1 Skill Point per Level
[Innate spell ability: Darkness, cast at character level, 1/day]
Favored Class: Rogue
ECL +1 –scripted as a 10% xp penalty perhaps

Half Celestial – Half human & Half “Angel”
+4 Strength, +2 Dexterity, +4 Constitution,
+2 Intelligence, +4 Wisdom, +4 Charisma
Natural Armor Class bonus: +1
Quick to Master, 1 Skill Point per Level
Immunity to Acid, Cold, Electricity, and Disease –possibly too powerful
Low-light Vision
Saving throw bonus: +4 to fortitude saves against poison
ECL +5 –scripted as a 50% xp penalty perhaps

Half Fiend – Half Human & Half Devil/Demon/Whatever the Neutral Evil ones are called
+4 Strength, +4 Dexterity, +2 Constitution,
+4 Intelligence, and +2 Charisma
Armor Class bonus: +1
Quick to Master, 1 Skill Point per Level
Immunity to Poison
Dark vision
20/- Damage Resistance against Fire, Acid, Cold, and Electricity –possibly too powerful
ECL +5 –scripted as a 50% xp penalty perhaps

Earth Genasi – Plane touched: Elemental Earth
+2 Strength and -2 Dexterity
Dark vision
[Innate spell ability: Stone skin, 1/day]
Saving throw bonus: +1 vs. earth spells and effects at level 1, additional +1 for every 5 levels
Quick to Master, 1 Skill Point per Level
Clerics must take the Earth Domain
Favored Class: Fighter
ECL +1 –scripted as a 10% xp penalty perhaps

Air Genasi – Planetouched: Elemental Air
+2 Dexterity and -2 Wisdom
Dark vision
[Innate spell ability: Camouflage, 1/day]
Saving throw bonus: +1 vs. air spells and effects at level 1, additional +1 for every 5 levels
Quick to Master, 1 Skill Point per Level
Clerics must take the Air Domain
Favored Class: Rogue
ECL +1 –scripted as a 10% xp penalty perhaps

Fire Genasi – Planetouched: Elemental Fire
+2 Charisma and -2 Strength
Dark vision
[Innate spell ability: Fire Shield, 1/day]
Saving throw bonus: +1 vs. fire spells and effects at level 1, additional +1 for every 5 levels
Quick to Master, 1 Skill Point per Level
Clerics must take the Fire Domain
Favored Class: Sorcerer
ECL +1 –scripted as a 10% xp penalty perhaps

Water Genasi – Planetouched: Elemental Water
-2 Constitution and +2 Wisdom
Dark vision
Spell immunity: Drown
Saving throw bonus: +1 vs. water spells and effects at level 1, additional +1 for every 5 levels
Quick to Master, 1 Skill Point per Level
Clerics must take the Water Domain
Favored Class: Cleric
ECL +1 –scripted as a 10% xp penalty perhaps

Let me know how this list should be modified, what is helpful/useful, and what isn't.
Also, if you have a prefered format of some sort, let me know about that too.

[hfb]

Additions to above:
Drow:
Favored class for females = cleric
Favored class for males = wizard

Svirfneblin:
Favored class = wizard

I also found the following (from <<http://www.nsrealm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=1258>>
which may be of interest:

Half-Ogre

Although Humans and Ogres are not known for their romantic liaisons, they do occur (often less romantically than with elves and humans) and Half Ogres are often the result. Most Half Ogres are not accepted by their Ogre parent, as they are smaller, weaker and slower to mature than their brethren. This pushes them in turn towards Human society, where their great size and fearsome appearance gives them a modicum of respect, although they are still often judged harshly for their giant-kin roots. Those that cannot adapt to Human life find themselves uprooted, without kin, wandering alone or perhaps with a tribe of lesser humanoids.


* Favored Class: Barbarian
* +4 Strength, +2 Constitution, -2 Dexterity, -2 Intelligence, -2 Wisdom, -2 Charisma
* +4 Taunt, -2 Discipline, -2 Persuade
* +2 to all Fortitude saving throws
* Level Adjustment +2 -- scripted as 20% xp penatly perhaps
* Darkvision

The Dancer

[boxfox]

I don't know if it's possible, but my favorite race to play anywhere is the Pixie.

I can't script nearly as well as you, Funkster, but I do know a wee bit =P. I know it's possible to polymorph a creature into a pixie...and I'm pretty sure it's possible to change it's type into Fey...so assuming you did all that, all that's left is the race-specific stuff. Pixies have Imp. Invis. even early on, and that is probably too much, but maybe 1 use/day would be ok, just to keep a bit of their magic.

The actual attribute change is as follows: -2 str, +8 dex, +6 int, +4 wis, +6 cha...which is WAY too buff for a lvl 1. Perhaps you could try this instead. -2 str, +4 dex, -2 con, +2 int, +2 wis, +2 cha
Adding in the penalty to CON and lowering all the other bonuses makes a lot more sense when keeping the bonuses throughout the char's entire career. If you dm's in your infinite wisdom (hehee) think that is STILL too much, we could lower it to just the basics...
-2 str, +4 dex, -2 con. I don't advocate this though, as you could just as soon take halfling for a dex bonus. The nice thing about pixies, is that they have a lot of small bonuses that don't make the char uber, but make the char just a bit more playable.

I vote for option 1 or 2...just my 2 cents.

[FunkySwerve]

Thanks for the submissions, people. What I'm looking for, however, is not cut n' paste from other subrace systems, but your own ideas. To repeat, we will NOT be using any ECL or experience adjustment system of any kind. Subrace bonus and penalties MUST balance out, with no such penalties included in the equation. Yes, pixies are fully possible, but you should be aware that because of your size you will not be able to carry/use many items. That naturally creates some leniency in the stats department, but the first set you posted was too extreme. Don't even bother including spell abilities, 1.65 put an end to characters having the special abilities needed to implement them (short of using a hak to add them as feats, but we will remain hak-free). Spell resistance is doable, as is any sort of spell-like EFFECT that could be permanently applied to the character. Too much SR won'tr pass muster though, as it would be unbalancing. The goal here is to give you all some added flexibility in your character builds, without unbalancing the game. ECL is a poor substitute for balancing, which is why we will not be using it.

Funky

[mrbubbles]

If this is still going on, I would think a half mermaid/merman character would be kinda neat, but I haven't polished out all the details though.

My first thought would be a half sea creature subrace would rule out the need for an underwaterbreathing ring. And I suppose they would be more susceptible to electricity (is this possible?)
Possibly less susceptible to fire a bit..(again, possible?)

Weapon Focus/Proficiency Trident? (maybe I have been watching a bit too many cartoons... or maybe not)

From my perspective I don't really consider mermaids/merman as more of the brute force type or the spellcaster type, so not exactly sure how this would effect stats.
I would think it might be neat to give them a prefered class that nothing else has like Druid or Bard and those classes seem to fit the mermaid/merman profile.

Anyone got any further suggestions or views?

[hfb]

Greetings,

What do you think of the following:

The cruelty and chaos of the Drow sends out ripples well beyond even their control. Internal wars for dominion unleash external forces of selection and counter-evolution. The following are just a few of the results of the social engineering of the Drow.

1. Half-ogre: This race is more mongrel than anything else. There are of course offspring from the raids ordered and organized by those in the Underdark. Waves of enslaved meatbags are literally ejected from the earth at the unsuspecting above. This ensures terror, depopulation, and the general softening of the defenses of the topsiders. Decades of this harvest granted the Drow another “race” of fodder for the next waves: the Half-ogre. Large in stature, deformed by the trauma of birth, mentally stunted, and mean as heck.

([Half-Orc subrace--counts as an Half-orc in game mechanics terms] Str +6, Dx –4, Con +4, Int –2, Wis –2, Cha –4, Darkvision, Natural armor +2, unable to read, i.e. use/scribe scrolls, Favored Class: Barbarian)

2. Skulks: The unmentionable and unpardonable failures in Drow society: those banned from the great game, the cast-offs and losers, social left-overs below even contempt. As such byproducts ooze out of the mainstream they collect in swirling pools in the nooks and crannies of the Underdark. Just outside of hearing, earshot, and notice—Skulks have grown to resemble their namesake which is itself virtually unknown. They are a pale and mottled grey, mostly lacking in hair though what tufts there are are of the same hue. A not unfounded paranoia seems to be the bedrock of their personalities and it taints their every move and relationship while also spurring on their “natural” celerity and insight.

([Elven sub-race--counts as an Elf in game mechanics terms] Str –2, Dx +4, Ws +2, Ch –4, Darkvision, -1 to all rolls when outdoors, camouflage as constant spell effect, Move Silently and Hide +2, Favored Class: Rogue)

Leaving the Drow influence behind, let us turn to the sway of the Earth Mother:

3. Satyr: Gaia's fertility is self-reinforcing and no better example of this can be found than the Satyr. From the satyr's strings, mouth, and loins springs inspiration, novel and fecund life both cerebral and venal. Burgeoning with creativity the Satyr fills to overflowing all he encounters. Some can play along and some are overwhelmed, but all are touched.
Satyr's sport short horns on their foreheads and the rampant hindquarters of a well groomed goat take the place of human legs. A ruddy glow from hours in the forest sun highlights their sun-faded hair which is usually a chestnut hue.

([Halfling sub-race?] St -2, Dx +2, -2 Ws, +2 Ch, Low Light Vision, +4 perform, Size: Small, Spell Focus: Enchantment, Favored Class: Bard)

Are these closer to what you had in mind?

The Dancer

[FunkySwerve]

Dancer,
You can expect to see your first half ogre, the skulk, annd the satyr ingame soon, ith minor modifications, though not in tommorow's update. Sorry I'm so slow on replies, getting subraces to work without a vault purge was a huge pain in the ass, been super busy.

Funky

[Argon]

Hmmm, how to say this? Two things on my mind...

1. Subraces. After reviewing the sign at the Docks about the subrace bonus/penalties, the thing that strikes me most is that they really seem to be heavy on the bonuses, at least a few do. For example, why would anyone ever make a 'regular' dwarf? If nothing else, why not pick a Deep Dwarf, and get +3 on a few saves, with no downside? Or a Derro, and get a free SR18 and free feat with no downside? Or a Wild dwarf, again just bonuses and no downside? Within the elfs, why would anyone pick a Wild elf (-2 int, +2 con) when they could pick Aquatic elf and get the same stat adjustment, but get free waterbreathing to boot? And so on. Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining, and I certainly realize Funky has spent many many many many more hours thinking about this than I have, and so please don't take this as criticism. It just seems to me that a subrace's job is to give you a little more customization, a little more chance to make your character stand out, flesh out their history, etc. But I would think this should come at a price... at best the bonuses should be balanced with negatives... at worst, the negatives may even outweigh the bonuses, but you take it anyway for the luxury of customizing your character. Now a 'regular' character is the handicapped one. (I'm hoping the answer to this is "Yes, that's the way it's supposed to be, now quit talking about things you don't understand, Argon!")

2. Kind of along the lines of #1, this one's for some players out there.... I think the DM's are doing a great job of balancing things out, and I think the players are doing a great job of providing ideas. But every once in a while a player comes along and just wants more and more and wants it easier and easier, and to that I have to respond that the game's no fun if it's too easy. (I always seem to be the one asking to make things harder, it's a wonder no one's pk'ed me yet....) Anyway, I think it's great when a class can't do something but another class can. I think it's great when a 40 rogue can't pick EVERY lock or disable EVERY trap. Let the 40 rogue get most of 'em, but make a few that only a 40 rogue that took skill focus and epic skill focus can get. Let there be some monsters that mages can't touch with their spells. Let there be some monsters that fighters can't touch with their swords, that can ONLY be taken out with spells. I'd love it if there were 4 different high level "secrets" for barbarians, that depending on how the character was build they could only use one, or the other, or the other, etc. Sorry for typing so much, but I just don't want the DM's to give in to player whining... make the world as you think it should be, and let us work to excell in it!

OK, I'll step off the soapbox now. Thanks!

[FunkySwerve]

argon said:

But I would think this should come at a price... at best the bonuses should be balanced with negatives... at worst, the negatives may even outweigh the bonuses, but you take it anyway for the luxury of customizing your character.

This isn't the goal of the subraces I'm putting in. The point of the subraces, and the server in general, is to allow different and unusual builds, with different abilities, mainly cause I got bored of all the standard ones. Using a subrace will be a net positive, though they will not all be well suited to all class combinations. I'm just as bored of the regular class/race cominations as of the classes themselves, and I want people to use them since I had to spend so much time on them. You're free to abstain, and in some cases a subrace may NOT be the best idea for a given class combination, but the idea is to give players some different options. I can't count, for instance, how many builds I've made where, had I one more feat, I would've taken blind fighting. Now I can, at least with some races. Other subraces give a bump to dex, making getting self-conceal V a little more forgiving, and allowing a greater number builds using it. Likewise, things like mighty rage or planar turning will be less of a pain to get, giving more flewxibility to less used builds. If you're convenmed about balance I wouldn't be; most of the abilities are of specious allure beyond allowing a little more build flexibility. Take drow spell resistance, for instance. Nice at low levels, and near worthless at high levels (45 doesn't hack it). Stuff like that was put in to keep the races somewhat in line with their PnP versions, to maintain a little flavor. Realistically, how much is a save +3 vs poison worth on a server where you can get a bone ring at level 2 (or one if you pass up the Rowan tree)? Take another look at the races bearing in mind that this is an uber, action server and not a RP server, and I think you'll find that, with a few exceptions, theyre pretty well balanced.
All that said, I spent a great deal more time getting the system working than I did on the subraces, though I had a fair notion of what I wanted when I set out. There will be a few changes, and many additions. As to the elves, the aquatic elves were originally slated for a movement penalty out of water and a movement boost in it, but I had to scrap that for technical reasons. The halflings are also exceedingly bland right now. Yes, its nice to be able to say, "I'm an XYZ halfling" (insert your favorite), and that might be pretty meaningful on a RP server, but it doesn't hold much water here. If people on HG were interested in that stuff I'm sure I would've seen at least ONE Harper Scout in all this time (the secret is NICE, I SWEAR) . Theyre not, though, and neither am I, not to any great extent. There will be some cool custom races that are not necessarily hugely advantageous (some of you may remember seeing me tearing around as Deekin a few months ago), but I'm going out of my way to ensure that they are NOT too disadvantageous (difficult because kobolds get hosed on weapon/shiekd sizes - imagine pixies!). The goal is too keep it fresh and interesting, not get tied up worrying about whether x subrace gives too many advantages over the non-subrace version(though balancing between subraces is a priority, as I don't want to see a million drow, or pixies, or what-have-yous running around). A comparison to our class enhancements would probably be on point. They are more powerful, with souped-up abilities that the standard classes dont get - to keep it interesting. Monsters, likewise, are much harder - take a look at the new maze areas.

As to making it so players have to choose among different abilities for their class, I hads orignally planned to do that with both wizzes /sorcs and PMs, with subclasses like chromomancer. The problem is that it's a LOT of work, and there are still a few classes in need of a lot of help to be effective and different. Paladins are still on that list, to an extent, as are assassins, blackguards, etc. Evil just doesnt pay, though PMs are hopefully a turning point in that regard. Once the rest of the classes get their turn, you can expect to see more new spells and abilities, but as far as forced choices between them, that's a LONG way off.

And as far as caving in to whiny players, you obviously haven't heard my nicknames for a few of our more...vocal...players.

Funky

[Argon]

Awesome! Thanks, Funky, that's exactly what I was hoping to hear. Like I said, I know you put a lot more thought into the behind the scenes stuff that we players will never know about, I just wanted to make sure the few things I saw were intentional and not oversights. Keep up the awesome work!

(Hmm, no, haven't heard any of your nicknames yet, I'll have to take the anti-whine cotton filters out of my ears and listen a bit more.)