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Post by chirality on Mar 6, 2020 21:16:37 GMT
No one said it was time for this again or anything, but I think it's time.
Gonna skip the usual preface; I think there's no need for introducing the topic at this point.
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-Angle: improve QoL/weird fluff to make wizard more appealing to play *at a given time* and/or "until new spells" etc; hopefully bring some action and energy to the class, without expecting a huge systemic buff -Ease reinc restrictions/penalties to make wizards into a true "jack of all trades" core mage; in the sense that a player may truly enjoy maximum flexibility and freedom while creating a wizard in their vault, both in terms of inter-class and intra-class rebuilding. -Give them the "newer" (well, never saw it before XR subs anyway) enhanced dice weapon buff mechanic from subraces such as Tanarukk. Basically what I mean is just give wizards extra dice on their weap buffs for rn. This would overnight make wizards into a critical choice for certain runs and party compositions; should we take the sorc or should we take the wizard for better tank dmg? this is a temporary stopgap aimed at just bringing some harder decision for now. -Free EMA and/or Warding. This could be delivered in various ways, such as a choice of one or the other @ level X, a gift of one for pure vs nonpure, spec vs generalist, etc. Maybe pure gets EMA, pure specced gets both. Again, stopgap measure -Rechargable ruin. Put it on smite timer mechanic, 3 charges. 1 charge refreshes every 5 mins. It's not OP, the spell is garbage, this would be a huge help to wizards competing with spontaneously-casting sorcs that can toss PWKs and disints on the fly without needing to prep ahead or worry about running out, give em a reserve source of rare instakill to use in desperation. Stopgap until mechanus reveals both ruin and wizards to be OP. -Codex of arcane algorithms given at ?L41 -TA given at ?L41 -seriously just do both of these plz -Immunity (true/arti tier/whatever) to specced spell school -Literally apply the same bonus slot script(s) that sorc has, to wizard. Use the 1/3 version, the quasiclass one. 50% i think would be too much but give em extra 30%. or this could be a perk for pure or specced. sure it's not as smooth as "bonus casts or recharging casts or whatever tf, of spec school" but imo that still works fine. it follows the PnP principle (bonus slots--not bonus DC) as well. if a wizard specs, then give em 1/3 extra slots..shrug that's legit imo. i think that's fair (again--for now).
-recharging (on rest) mord rod. No, I'm serious. Another stopgap. I'm not a fan of "class specific" consumables, but hey it works out super well for HS. Hey, this is grounded in real experience and this is legit what I think would be a great and balanced buff for wizards atm. One thing that wizards lack vs sorcs wrt spontaneous casting, is in particular, flexible slots for on-the-spot-changing-need for mords (scrolls are too slow and sux in case reader was wondering). So let's give wizards like, hell i dunno, 5 extra mords per rest. that would be pretty cool.
-Ranged p2. yeah literally just give wizards the limbo rod. change the name and make it look like some cool alchemical wizardly thing like an electrifier or test tube or something. theme is uhm, wizardish cantrip mastery of Prestidigitation, it becomes like a spell-like ability for legendary wizards to manipulate certain magical items at range or even perform the basic functions of them, telekinetically. yeah this one is really reaching, i already made the bullet and had to come up with a final idea.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Mar 6, 2020 21:53:06 GMT
Stopgaps are problematic because players come to rely on them, and wail when they are removed (as with any bonus). Same reason players always suggest adding instead of nerfing. Take, for example, your idea of adding slots like sorcs. It's probably the least problematic of your suggestions from my perspective. The imbalance is coming from the sorc edit. Instead of nerfing sorc back to balance (part of the reason that edit was made), you're proposing adding wiz slots. Not great. Of course, people are accustomed to those slots now, and reducing them will create said wails.
Anyway, I like your proposed goal, and I like that you're trying to use already-extant mechanics to reduce dev time, but I would rather give wizards more their own niche. Buffing the familiar would be one way, but would be very time-intensive as balancing summons is a real pita, especially as the marker keeps moving with new areas.
Curious to hear what others have to say.
Funky
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Post by desocupado on Mar 6, 2020 21:58:44 GMT
Is it possible to make all caster spontaneous in a similar vein to sorcerers and bards? (I'm assuming no given how bgs and assassins have the other spell book)
Is it simple to remove barred schools? They really add nothing to gameplay fun.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Mar 6, 2020 22:13:31 GMT
Is it possible to make all caster spontaneous in a similar vein to sorcerers and bards? (I'm assuming no given how big and assassin's have the other spell book) Is it simple to remove barred schools? They really add nothing to gameplay fun. No and no, unfortunately. Both would require plugins. We actually have a lot of code specced out for a spont-caster cleric class, but the plugins involve a lot of work, which is why we've been waiting quite a while for some. Funky
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Post by woqued on Mar 7, 2020 0:01:56 GMT
Epics are a bigger resting indicator than slots. Wizards wouldn't become OP nor dictate the party resting any more or less than currently if they are given more slots. In general, I wouldn't mind a small slot boost overall just to give more options to play with. They'd just have more courage to try different things and slot more unconventional spells for off situations than now.
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Post by desocupado on Mar 7, 2020 1:09:14 GMT
Epics are a bigger resting indicator than slots. Wizards wouldn't become OP nor dictate the party resting any more or less than currently if they are given more slots. In general, I wouldn't mind a small slot boost overall just to give more options to play with. They'd just have more courage to try different things and slot more unconventional spells for off situations than now. What if specialist wizards didn't spend spell slots when using schools from their specialization school? (i.e. unlimited uses of all spells from their specialization's school) It would make any most spell school specialization very desirable (and justify the cost of 2 schools). It' be crazy fun if such feature was splashable into other classes, comparable to monk AC on wisdom based casters. A free "Epic Polymath" could be nice too for legendary wizards. Even a simpler additional use of each known epic spell would be good too, if this is an appropriate carrot for wizards of sorcerers. I do think Wizards should get PSK (in their specialization school) for free after getting PSF. Applying this to any school would make people want to have level 60+ wizards.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Mar 7, 2020 1:54:50 GMT
Epics are a bigger resting indicator than slots. Wizards wouldn't become OP nor dictate the party resting any more or less than currently if they are given more slots. In general, I wouldn't mind a small slot boost overall just to give more options to play with. They'd just have more courage to try different things and slot more unconventional spells for off situations than now. Not just. They'd have quantifiably more firepower between rests. Would rather reduce sorcs to make them line up before adding for wiz. Would also open another class to the spellslot bug, which is not super. This could be the best idea I've seen this year. Or really terrible, I'm not quite sure. I'd definitely want a breakdown of opposition schools to try to predict the unintended consequences of this. Would make evo much better than current, and it already has one of the better epics precisely cause it was weak. We don't do free feats if we can avoid it. Opposite of goal of forcing meaningful choices. Funky
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Post by FunkySwerve on Mar 7, 2020 2:01:09 GMT
Is it possible to make all caster spontaneous in a similar vein to sorcerers and bards? (I'm assuming no given how big and assassin's have the other spell book) Is it simple to remove barred schools? They really add nothing to gameplay fun. No and no, unfortunately. Both would require plugins. We actually have a lot of code specced out for a spont-caster cleric class, but the plugins involve a lot of work, which is why we've been waiting quite a while for some. Funky Actually, I make be wrong about the barred schools. Need to recheck. Funky
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Post by woqued on Mar 7, 2020 4:18:32 GMT
Even if wizards had infinite slots they would not be op for general group play. Even if they have JUST the spell all the time every day always every round they spend casting something, they would not be doing anything groundbreaking, they just wouldn't be shitty to play and would have more margin for error (like spamming disintegrate at some hamatula in a party where druid forgot they're supposed to nb and the wizard is too dumb to bestow first and not run out doing this dumb shit). It is the fact that they don't use the rounds they have as well as Sorcs do - and they're significantly less fun to play due to the spellbook management - though some like that fiddling and planning, I prefer to do it in the spell selection and spell focus selection part, not when everyone is waiting for you to figure out what you're supposed to put in your book.
Rant: Even if sorcs were a tad worse powerwise, I don't think I would go back to wizard - but that's me. Some people like the spellbook management and that's ok. Personally I hate it and especially if it's the balancing mechanic that is meant to bring sorcs down to wizards' level... Oof, wrong way imo. Wrong way to balance in the first place and at the cost of gearing options for Sorcs (just means more slot gear less durability woo fun gearing). I don't think forcing people to rest and rebuff all the time (when they won't run out of rests anywhere except Limbo pt2 hard pretty much) is a good balancing mechanic - it is a time sink, with a minigame to reduce the amount of timesink sessions spent. Speaking of, in particular TA should've in the first place been the reward for Immortality or some other guaranteed source when it was first implemented - woulda saved everyone an immense amount of irritation over time. Then again, I think spellbook slotting being the balancing factor is lunacy anyway so in that regard I'm just playing the wrong game. Sure people get some enjoyment out of finding that rare piece of shit that makes your life better and everyone elses if everyone had it and it adds value to Aboleths as a run, but I think the pain and suffering caused by people not having it when you're looking at that idiot with 30 unnecessary buffs in their buffer who gets sad when people go forward before they're done buffing... Fuckin misery inflicted on everyone out of value for a run/trading system.
Sorc spellbook management is fun as you need to setup your character to be able to do certain things, and then use them well; but it isn't a hassle after you've made your bed, now you lie in it. Clerics, druids and wizards have this unfun hassle about them that made me play them less (or in wizards case, not even to Legendary levels; best use is as a 35-40 helper who opens door to Academy). In a way, I'm glad I played cleric first; if I played sorc first I would've never leveled up and druid probably. The resource management is about forcing yourself and your buddies to stop having fun the least amount of times possible - another reason why shifters were and tanks are that popular; they are less tied to stopping to rest and rebuffing as much. /rant
Edit: if the sorc spell slot issue is that they can run around with channeling 3 all the time, then they probably will die to any dangerous mechanic implemented. If they don't, then the slots should indeed be nerfed or Channeling should. Either way, I don't think the power difference between the classes comes from amount of slots; it is autochanneling and channeling, as well as fun factor - and I would rather bring wizards to sorcs rather than the other way around, of course that power hungry fool! Shoulda known better!
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Post by Xiayu on Mar 7, 2020 5:07:12 GMT
Buffing the familiar would be one way, but would be very time-intensive as balancing summons is a real pita, especially as the marker keeps moving with new areas. I am curious as to what kind of buff would it be for the familiar, if you could share? It made me think of other games where the player could choose different summons depending on preferred playstyle or situation. The wizard could change the familiar (or rather, the bonus) once per rest. The summoned familiar could cast offensive spells, although I find that harder to make use on a real run, or defensive spells (self only?), similar to the bard epic restoring the party. The familiar could also just be somewhat of a permanent bonus as long as it is active, for example, giving the caster increased spell damage, spell penetration or DC (perhaps on certain spells/schools), increase spell reach or change the way some of the spells might work. Although I would rather see this on sorcerer as well as wizard (non quasi), wizards could gain something extra from it (depending on specialization?).
I agree that unlimited casts on specialized spells might not make Wizards OP, but I also think it could lead to some abuseable situations, or just generally bad play as some things could be spammed non-stop. A chance of not consuming the spell slot when cast would be best, in my opinion.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Mar 7, 2020 6:10:40 GMT
Buffing the familiar would be one way, but would be very time-intensive as balancing summons is a real pita, especially as the marker keeps moving with new areas. I am curious as to what kind of buff would it be for the familiar, if you could share? Haven't given it much thought, as I don't think it's a good investment of dev time, compared to other possibilities. Funky
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Post by Paradoom on Mar 7, 2020 9:14:17 GMT
I look at Limbo and compare my wiz and sorc. I will bring my sorc. You need to spam the same spell randomly over and over, something you just cant manage on a wiz or you'll end up as a one hit wonder. Even if you are a pure wiz your spells are weaker. And splashed with rogue (like most, as it at least allows use of those immense skill points), you are flat out 2SP behind a sorc and even -1DC unless you use a DC ego.
I think that is not fixed with more spellslots (though certainly nice to have). It took me not less than 5 years to collect enough wiz gear and augmenters to now have a decent amount of slots and I still lack resists and imms in comparison to my sorc.
And I do hate the Idea of specialisation as wiz in general. 2 bared schools and quite the flexibilty loss in spells and then a measly gain of 2 dc that is not even going past paragonfocus, let alone any other perks.
Suggestions: - grant splashed wizards +1sp to negate the sp loss - if pure allow specialization for one school instead of two. - if pure and specialized have a 50% chance of not useing a spell of the choosen school. - optional, if baring a second school, can either special in a second school with same effects, or make the first one have gain another 25% chance of not using up slots. (or maybe unlimited use like suggested before) - allow them to wear a dc and a sp ego at the same time (not sure that would work and even so I can imagine that this would need alot of bug fixing afterwards) - bring the storable spellbooks back (just a wish, I know it is too broken)
I´d give it a shot with the full unlimited spells of the spec school too, since that would negate some of the slot issues and grant wizzys a unique perk over sorcs.
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Post by horbag on Mar 7, 2020 9:47:53 GMT
maby this is a bit out of the box but what if: (and i know this is a lot to ask for) (pure)wizards don't give any KB to the party when used on the normal KB mobs, for say winds, but only to themselves if they are within the radius of lets say same size of a fear aura from barbarians
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Post by desocupado on Mar 7, 2020 12:38:25 GMT
I'd definitely want a breakdown of opposition schools to try to predict the unintended consequences of this. It's worth noting this system was overwritten in HG for a long time. Blocked schools are chosen by the player and usually consist of two between enchantment, conjuration or divination.
A few people might block transmutation, evocation or necromancy to keep the above schools (usually those tempted to do so avoid specialization altoguether). I don't think anyone blocks illusion or abjuration. All in all, schools aren't balanced for this feature and it doesn't add nothing fun to gameplay. This could be the best idea I've seen this year. Or really terrible, I'm not quite sure. Giving it further tough, only Evocation and Conjuration have enough different spells to justify using a specialist wizard over a sorcerer (or herald, bfm/dsm, pariah, pm). To create a meaningful choice a wizard would have to pick at least two schools for unlimited spell casting (and specialization), it'd be evocation (conjuration is a worse but somewhat viable alternative) + another one according to player's taste. Would make evo much better than current, and it already has one of the better epics precisely cause it was weak. I'm assuming you mean Karsu's Avatar Paragon spell. This spell single handed made all other casters without it obsolete when it comes to damaging with spell casting. The biggest causalities were Druids, DSM/BFM, Herald and Pariah.
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Post by simpetar on Mar 7, 2020 13:04:11 GMT
Time to dust off some of my old wizard ideas:
1. Cantrips Character with 30 levels of wizard (not LL) may cast spells using lvl 1 slots for free at will. Lvl 1 spell slots are protected from any kind of amnesia. At wiz lvl 35, these benefits apply also to slots of lvl 2, and at wiz 40 for slots lvl 3. - thought behind this: This would give wizards some degree of on-the-fly flexibility that sorcs have. Low level spells are by definition weaker than high level ones (so nothing too OP), and this way wizards can still have some answer to most situations.
2. Expanded metamagic options a. Auto-extended spell 1-3, legendary feats, requires 40 base Spellcraft, CC wizard, no quasiclass. Characters with 30 levels of wizard receive Auto-extended spell 1 for free upon reaching LLs. b. Auto-empowered spell 1-3, legendary feats, requires 50 base Spellcraft, CC wizard, no quasiclass. Characters with 35 levels of wizard receive Auto-empowered spell 1 for free upon reaching LLs. c. Auto-maximized spell 1-3, legendary feats, requires 60 (!!!) base Spellcraft, CC wizard, no quasiclass. Characters with 40 levels of wizard receive Auto-maximized spell 1 for free upon reaching LLs. - Long story short: power at the cost of flexibility. These feats would force wizards to make some choices, possibly sacrificing schools in both LLs and PLs. In return, the spells will pack more punch. Note that Auto-maximized can be taken at the earliest at lvl 60, so if a player wishes to go the whole way to Auto-max 3, PL feats need to be sacrificed as well. - Even with these feats, wizards would have less slots to play with than sorcs.
3. More damage increase For legendary non quasi wizards, Spellcraft increases exotic (and wannabe exotic like desiccating or force, but not esoteric) damage of spells the same way Lore increases elemental damage. That is, exotic damage of spells increases by +1% per point of Spellcraft above 20, up to +100% at Spellcraft 120.
4. Slightly off-topic, but related: Buff Greater Ruin Greater Ruin gains +1 DC per 2 Paragon Levels the caster has, up to DC 75 at caster level 80. In addition, if the target is vulnerable to Dismissal, Banishment or Unname, they will also be destroyed if they fail the saving throw, regardless of other immunities.
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