|
Post by xakila on Nov 15, 2020 23:31:02 GMT
tldr: current system is kinda punishing on newer players and doesn't affect older players much except at XR tier.
So I was wondering, what is the reasoning for needing 2 books when you want to upgrade a character's race tier? Between the reincarnation timer and the expense of some of the better races it seems to really only hinder newer players/non multiboxers, especially since you can swap to same tier races without the extra book.
Requiring double the resources to upgrade your first/favorite toons you've invested time in rather than just start a newer one (depending on how much you've tagged etc may or may not be easier) in my head at least doesn't make as much sense, seeing as if I had leveled a throwaway to 60 and gotten any bur race and went from there, it would cost half of what it does with the current setup.
Personally I feel that having read the book on your account should be enough, seeing as you can now level a brand new toon with that race from level 1. I feel that having leveled/tagged put in the work as a lower powered race is enough of a cost for upgrading once you've gotten your hands on a copy of a better race, at least in my head.
I know from the newer player perspective , having only been here a short time and just now getting a few of the better races (thunderborn and pharlan being my best two), the two book cost has in my mind caused a bit of hesitation and a bit of confusion up til now. I know it is the way it is, and you work with it... but are there reasons for the way it is that outweigh the negatives (I mainly think of the stimulating the in game economy angle, since you're invested in the char already there's more demand for races and therefore more trading, but this mainly affects newer players the most).
Anyways just a bit of musing, been on my mind for a while since the thought of getting my hands on two half celestial books to upgrade my druid in 49 days when I can reincarnate again is making me cringe a little on the inside, and the system has me hesitating to try out things I wanna try unless I have at least a passable bur alternative to the optimal bur race for it. Which is not necessarily an option for newer players than me, unless they know not to invest in their first char too much(unless they are prepared for the expense) til they get a bur tier race.
|
|
|
Post by KnightErrant on Nov 16, 2020 0:01:36 GMT
If I recall earlier days correctly the reincarnation light was only unlocked when updates dropped and there was no upgrading option for anything. When you got a better/new race you made a new toon and the old one sat in your character list or you still played it or some just deleted them. After awhile people starting pleading and begging endlessly to have the time spent on their old toons not be wasted and someone posted that "they would gladly pay the price of another book" to upgrade their old toons...
From a game economy standpoint it seems to still be working in the sense that even after 10? (or more) years some of the books still have a very high value.
KE.
|
|
|
Post by woqued on Nov 16, 2020 0:33:44 GMT
You're talking about times when 60 and BURs were cap. We aren't anywhere near that time/emotion/cost investment, and while it paints a picture from olden days it has very little to do with how the game plays out now. 80 cap and extra tagging and XRs make it many levels beyond frustrating, and means heavily catering to incredibly grindy/devoted/limbo lowmanning players. It doesn't help that the XR pool is both wider and the races themselves are more narrow in their uses compared to BURs. Then again, if this type of devotion is required maybe it keeps people playing. I think access to various XRs and enabling more fluid options for characters when they get towards the end would be a tastier carrot than any negatives it would breed in diminished value. When you have access to more options you will try them out more.
Quite frankly made me take a break from the game several times and heavily deterred my visitations to the game, and I think I'm not the only one. Time spent leveling a duplicate of a character I already have isn't time well spent, for me personally. Doing it to 60 demix1-x2 is doable. But the amount of time spent in 60-80 and doing endgame tagging beyond that, it becomes a massive grindwall and when you would also require XR gear and XR weapons to make attaining those races a bit more reasonable (since 90%+ char progress now is in canopics when it comes to gear/subraces) ... Yeah, thanks but no. BUR subraces came from doing any endgame content while getting high end gear. XR subraces are closer to either/or with endgame gear, and it's more scarce, and more limited, and more time-consuming to get (tagging for bonuses means not getting XRs). Picking for Subraces means you're not getting gear upgrades.
Any history comparison here falls quite heavily on it's bum, imo. It's not even in the same ballpark.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2020 1:03:58 GMT
I completely agree with Woqued. Holding the standard of the existing game state to what was at 60 when things have changed markedly and the level of time, energy and resources has skyrocketed makes it no comparison. The two book standard needs to be dropped to one across the board. If you have it, you’re good to leverage it immediately. This same logic is exactly why you also need a targeted XR gamble. The investment is so high and you’re left burned and people quit and take breaks because the balance that was is no longer. Adjustments need to be made or even the stalwarts will fade.
|
|
|
Post by boroie on Nov 16, 2020 9:48:12 GMT
I was not around for the good old days, but getting something to 60 or so is not too bad as said. However when it is your first character and you keep playing, then you start losing XP when you get over 60 (quite a significant amount sometimes). So you lose a 2nd book and lots of xp potentially, which is rough on new players. I have my first immo/demi/abyss character still waiting for a 2nd book sitting at 110m xp that I basically have just parked while I play up his BUR duplicate/replacement. Its a little frustrating. I can only imagine getting it to actually 80 and then needing to start all over again in the event you actually get a useable XR book. I need to get my rakshasa sorc to 80 just in case I ever do manage to get a book, just to even read it. I'd definitely be in favour of dropping the 2 book requirement for tier upgrade.
|
|
|
Post by tomaan on Nov 16, 2020 10:59:44 GMT
If I remember correctly, part of the reasoning was to keep people playing on all levels of the server and not just farming higher level runs. Same with lowby accomplishments....before then you would just camp/leech your way through the high xp areas.
That said, I agree that the duplicate requirement is too steep....unlocking at level 60 is sufficient imho.
|
|
|
Post by chainlink on Nov 16, 2020 11:01:48 GMT
The comment I made in the 'New Player Many Questions' thread becomes relevant, there are a load of BUR books in circulation of every type if you post a looking for book XXXX have YYYY items for trade thread you will probably manage to get one. You actually only need one of the specific new book if you are willing to use a cheap two book BUR upgrade (Furchin, Brownie, etc.) for the character (fear my Furchin Cleric/Brownie Sorcerer) then wait out the reincarnation timer to do a sideways move to the race you want, if you weren't playing it much then its not really a big deal. Do this at level 60 or 80 and you'll lose nothing, it just requires a bit of forward planning.
|
|
|
Post by woqued on Nov 16, 2020 12:25:51 GMT
The comment I made in the 'New Player Many Questions' thread becomes relevant, there are a load of BUR books in circulation of every type if you post a looking for book XXXX have YYYY items for trade thread you will probably manage to get one. You actually only need one of the specific new book if you are willing to use a cheap two book BUR upgrade (Furchin, Brownie, etc.) for the character (fear my Furchin Cleric/Brownie Sorcerer) then wait out the reincarnation timer to do a sideways move to the race you want, if you weren't playing it much then its not really a big deal. Do this at level 60 or 80 and you'll lose nothing, it just requires a bit of forward planning. This comes across as a way to circumvent a really annoying mechanic. Side effects: - No "super cheap" books in circulation on XR tier because all books have the upgrade function. People aren't leveling niche XRs as much because they're holding the books as tradebait for upgrading. - Forward planning requires you to take a break from your favourite character for 3 months. It may be the only character you'd like to play currently, but progress is halted. + It keeps the value of ALL books at least above a magical margin that is called upgrade cost. I don't think this is a plus, but some could see it as such. +? It's still better than no upgrade mechanic at all; letting us progress a character through the races is one of the main draws of HG imo. Frankly, I would've never played HG if upgrading wasn't a thing. ... If there has to be a cost, I think a gold sink would be better than a book sink. Removing gold from circulation is better than removing books from circulation. Even better than a gold/book sinks would be tag rewards; Demigods may upgrade to BUR, Limbo2 Hard winners to XR so as to reach a certain point in the game to allow upgrading. Alternatively, consider adding a specific valuable drop as an alternative to book cost to a run that allows you to access higher tier. UR sub access drop from Arcane Academy?, BUR drop from Cania?, XR drop from Limbo/Mechanus - Just spitballing here. Just to give you a clear goal of where to get what to do to progress, not hope you beg/trade for the right books x2; instead, get 1 and then complete a challenge, grind an item that you know drops from a certain place that makes it all a little random and require work but not too inaccessible. This would provide fluidity and continuity to character progression with clear yet somewhat hard to get goals. We butted heads about this with Raj because he is a realist and tells me to shelf my guys all the time, I'm an idealist who wants to play just that, so instead of shelfing I feel bad and don't play. Then he tells me (paraphrasing): "stupid moose, you ended up not playing so you coulda easily shelfed it!" - yes, true. But it feels that bad to some people. Even as something of a powergamer myself, games aren't always just about finding the optimal way of reaching the end. If it feels bad, I probably won't do it forever. Maybe I'll do it once, or twice; if I'm super addicted maybe 10 times, but at some point things that feel bad enough drive people away. I think the double book cost and character progression on the cusp of XR tier and endgame levels is one of those things.
|
|
|
Post by chainlink on Nov 16, 2020 12:31:37 GMT
The comment I made in the 'New Player Many Questions' thread becomes relevant, there are a load of BUR books in circulation of every type if you post a looking for book XXXX have YYYY items for trade thread you will probably manage to get one. You actually only need one of the specific new book if you are willing to use a cheap two book BUR upgrade (Furchin, Brownie, etc.) for the character (fear my Furchin Cleric/Brownie Sorcerer) then wait out the reincarnation timer to do a sideways move to the race you want, if you weren't playing it much then its not really a big deal. Do this at level 60 or 80 and you'll lose nothing, it just requires a bit of forward planning. This comes across as a way to circumvent a really annoying mechanic. Side effects: - No "super cheap" books in circulation on XR tier because all books have the upgrade function. People aren't leveling niche XRs as much because they're holding the books as tradebait for upgrading. - Forward planning requires you to take a break from your favourite character for 3 months. It may be the only character you'd like to play currently, but progress is halted. + It keeps the value of ALL books at least above a magical margin that is called upgrade cost. I don't think this is a plus, but some could see it as such. +? It's still better than no upgrade mechanic at all; letting us progress a character through the races is one of the main draws of HG imo. Frankly, I would've never played HG if upgrading wasn't a thing. ... If there has to be a cost, I think a gold sink would be better than a book sink. Removing gold from circulation is better than removing books from circulation. Even better than a gold/book sinks would be tag rewards; Demigods may upgrade to BUR, Limbo2 Hard winners to XR so as to reach a certain point in the game to allow upgrading. Alternatively, consider adding a specific valuable drop as an alternative to book cost to a run that allows you to access higher tier. UR sub access drop from Arcane Academy?, BUR drop from Cania?, XR drop from Limbo/Mechanus - Just spitballing here. Just to give you a clear goal of where to get what to do to progress, not hope you beg/trade for the right books x2; instead, get 1 and then complete a challenge, grind an item that you know drops from a certain place that makes it all a little random and require work but not too inaccessible. This would provide fluidity and continuity to character progression with clear yet somewhat hard to get goals. We butted heads about this with Raj because he is a realist and tells me to shelf my guys all the time, I'm an idealist who wants to play just that, so instead of shelfing I feel bad and don't play. Then he tells me (paraphrasing): "stupid moose, you ended up not playing so you coulda easily shelfed it!" - yes, true. But it feels that bad to some people. Even as something of a powergamer myself, games aren't always just about finding the optimal way of reaching the end. If it feels bad, I probably won't do it forever. Maybe I'll do it once, or twice; if I'm super addicted maybe 10 times, but at some point things that feel bad enough drive people away. I think the double book cost and character progression on the cusp of XR tier and endgame levels is one of those things. It is exactly a gold sink as it currently stands, people pay a load for a BUR book and then the people that are selling them use it to buy other stuff such as augments or hell shop consumables.
|
|
|
Post by woqued on Nov 16, 2020 12:37:12 GMT
It is exactly a gold sink as it currently stands, people pay a load for a BUR book and then the people that are selling them use it to buy other stuff such as augments or hell shop consumables. No, the augments/hell shop consumables are gold sinks. The books themselves are not, they move gold around between players, they do not remove gold from the game in any way or form. Upgrading gives the books value.
|
|
|
Post by boroie on Nov 16, 2020 12:38:22 GMT
It is exactly a gold sink as it currently stands, people pay a load for a BUR book and then the people that are selling them use it to buy other stuff such as augments or hell shop consumables. It is both a gold AND a time sink as woqued mentioned, you have to shelve your first/favourite character for 3 months or so something sub optimal with it (double crappy book upgrade). The OP was relating to newer players on HG rather than the old timers, even though it is applicable to all. When you have 15 years worth of loot, 23 accounts and XR races then it becomes less impactful as you have a whole stable to play. It is quite frustrating for those without though.
|
|
|
Post by chainlink on Nov 16, 2020 12:49:30 GMT
It is exactly a gold sink as it currently stands, people pay a load for a BUR book and then the people that are selling them use it to buy other stuff such as augments or hell shop consumables. No, the augments/hell shop consumables are gold sinks. The books themselves are not, they move gold around between players, they do not remove gold from the game in any way or form. Upgrading gives the books value. OK they are gold sinks indirectly, I obviously should have added that word to my original sentence to make it clear.
|
|
|
Post by chainlink on Nov 16, 2020 12:52:30 GMT
It is exactly a gold sink as it currently stands, people pay a load for a BUR book and then the people that are selling them use it to buy other stuff such as augments or hell shop consumables. It is both a gold AND a time sink as woqued mentioned, you have to shelve your first/favourite character for 3 months or so something sub optimal with it (double crappy book upgrade). The OP was relating to newer players on HG rather than the old timers, even though it is applicable to all. When you have 15 years worth of loot, 23 accounts and XR races then it becomes less impactful as you have a whole stable to play. It is quite frustrating for those without though. And trust me I've played enough -HC- to fully understand the whole start again thing as there is no reincarnation option for that playstyle, you should see the banks of -HC- characters I have shelved due to mod changes and obtaining new races that are better than what I previously built something with.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2020 14:36:08 GMT
Chain, you having all of that and done all of that doesn’t change the fact it’s a problem though. This problem is as real for new players and their BUR subs as it is for experienced / veteran players and their XR subs and ultimately, players hit a “this feels really bad” stage and go do something else. Even for me, where I have tons of accounts, resources, and have had for awhile, time, that is changing dramatically for me here in the next little while. Shelving toons I love? That’s the difference between whether I am around or not. This is a problem. It’s a problem for a game which already has a limited player base and is old as can be. This game sticks for your hardcore ish players and the reward ratio is way off here. As I’ve advocated for in the targeted XR Gamble thread there is a point where too much invested becomes a killer. The amount of time, energy, and resources required at the XR tier makes this a game killer.
|
|
|
Post by chirality on Nov 16, 2020 14:46:46 GMT
same discussion and debate surrounding this issue as day 1 of the proposal suggested and day 1 of the implementation. year after year.
the main thing that seems to have changed is the perception of why it was done in the first place and the value of the impact, or at least from the small public opinion that seems to still exist.
funny, from what i see, it looks like most of the people who argued for this change in the first place are now, themselves, ghosts of the past. sometimes it feels as if those few who still play are still paying the price of taxes levied by those who burned out and moved on already, despite how strenuously and vociferously they demanded changes that favored their careers or their philosophies when they were active, even to the detriment of many at the time, let alone as the years progressed. "cool"
originally the "problem" to be "solved" was that BUR books were free-flowing, had overwhelming ubiquity, and vets were gifting newbies so many BUR races within such a short tenure on the server, that not only was the "economy" suffering, but (it was said), new player retention was in fact harmed by the ability to progress too quickly. countless examples and anecdotes of new players that burned out in a far-too-short timespan, or progressed far too much in a too-short window, were provided as evidence. new players having the ability to get BUR books too early, and have BUR toons too early, was a big problem (it was said) for the game. population was suffering, new players were frustrated, vets were frustrated, and the balance of career progress was entirely misaligned (it was said).
this was the solution. no more guilds buying influence over new players by loading their accounts up with BURs, no more new players rapidly ascending to the "endgame" and losing focus/motivation/incentive and quitting, no more old players jealous of the exponential decrease in the time and effort required to proceed up the ladder of power creep.
also, reincarnation had lost much of its value as a regulator or check-balance system with updates and edits (it was said), and implementor(s) often viewed structural/foundational issues such as this as critical evidence for the necessity of changes.
don't forget that multiboxing was relatively rare and the few who used/abused bot armies at the time were exceptions, not the norm; power creep far exceeded content; lack of fresh challenge and difficulty combined with (relatively) stale meta, and ability to easily conquer the game in a very short amount of time, produced an environment perceived by many vets as harmful. some specific examples of players who quickly went from newbie to capped-out wealth and power were often touted as anecdotal evidence of how badly this double-book change was needed, as was specific examples of new players who were front-ended so much overpower via BUR books that they vanished after beating the game too fast.
the idea was to prolong the life of the game and improve new player retention, reduce old player frustration, and overall reduce burnout of both.
it never made much sense to many people at the time, and as years went on, it made less and less sense to those people. it made sense to other people. the root difference is the view of the game, and it's basically what woqued touched on above. perspectives are not always shared, even amongst players with otherwise-similar or -overlapping mindset/attitude/viewpoints, and perspectives are not likely to be altered once grounded in a serious commitment of time to the game. this is somewhere between economic policy and political belief, as far as governing the game. it was extremely difficult (or frankly impossible) to successfully counter-argue the proponents of the book level cap/double burn upgrade cost changes, and iirc/afaik, not one single person was convinced or swayed by arguments one way or the other: the change was championed by those who believed it to be for the best, and the implementor(s) agreed. as years pass,
at the end of the day, there is something to be said for limiting burnout and this is one of the ways. i can see plenty of evidence of players progressing in leaps and bounds far past what was once even dreamed of. the same arguments for why the limits are not overly-cumbersome, are still applicable today; as generations of newbies have been told, playing or not playing is a choice, enjoying the game or not is a choice, taking a break or not is a choice, playing a subpar toon/race or not is a choice, and so on. at this point, i could argue strenuously in favor of either keeping or discarding the change.
however, keep in mind that a clamor of "this is holding me back from enjoying the game, this is driving away new players, this is preventing new players from progressing, this is interrupting our runs, this is killing our party formation, this is going to make me quit, this is going to make me take a break if it's not changed asap" generally is received with a pretty jaded and stoic lukewarm reception by "old guard" players and "management", and it's not due to jealousy or resentment of things being easier for the new kids on the block than "back in their day", but more due to (again) their philosophical outlook on the game's economy and lifetime.
|
|