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Post by Argon on May 24, 2006 18:38:52 GMT
Won't somebody think of the shadowdancers!?! Come on people, how many of you actually SEE a char with SD levels in the 20s. I have one, and I can count on one hand the number of others i've seen. Well of course you can't SEE them, they're Shadowdancers for Pete's sake! They're all over the server, you can't hide in a shady alley without stepping over three or four of them. You just can't SEE them, that's all.... But seriously, they probably are the least played class on the server. Given that hide/sneak pretty much don't work in the higher level areas (farm's about as high as you can sneak around in, I think), not many folks see an advantage to them. It makes sense to me to do some sort of evasion/concealment/dodge/shadowplane thing with them. As to exactly what that might be I'd have to ponder it a bit... I just couldn't pass up the chance to pull Bakchuda's leg on that post....
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Post by DragonChyld on May 24, 2006 20:27:33 GMT
I think a good combo to make the Barb a Stronger class is 2 things... I know I am new and people might think this is crazy...
First you need to fix at LEAST the Half Ogre Subrace. It really is pathetic. Compare it with other Large Subraces such as a Drider who gets Blind fight, Diamond Body, and walking on quicksand, and the +3 boost to str makes the HO get quickly lost in the shuffleC Compare it with troll, while the troll only has the +2 to STR they get the +3 in CON, which is the reverse of the HO +3STR/+2CON. And Trolls get REGen AND the base class is still Half Orc. SO you make the half Ogre better I would Sugest the Minos +4 STR, THEN
Change the Fast Movment on Barbs from a one shot 10% to half what Monks get which would be 10% every 6 Levels. I would be willing to bet alot that you would see quite a few more barb builds if the Troll and Ogre subraces were beefed a little, and people knew that they could actually keep up with party members playing them.
Added bonus. when you go shapestrong the large weapon already is proficient and WFed.
As for SD I agree completly, I would change the concelment they get from a temp thing to a permant thing when certain requriments are met, much as you did with RDD.
My thoughts.
~ DC
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Post by hfb on May 24, 2006 21:13:12 GMT
Greetings,
Re: SD, given their expected AC, the standard SD defense is mathematically better than a full-on wizzie's EV. Now additional buffs do move the center of gravity toward the wizzie, but then again, it is a bit more difficult (impossible) to dispell the SD's defenses away or have them drop upon res.
Cheers,
The Dancer
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Post by MilesAtma on May 24, 2006 22:20:25 GMT
cheers to groo for the monk post, i agree monks need some tender loving care some time in the future.
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Post by doomsdaybringer on May 24, 2006 22:24:21 GMT
yea monk do need works.... but groo, u miss understand how KD work... you dont need any point Discipline skill to knock down ppl....so in other word st and dex monk get the same chance of knocking down a enemy if both monk have same ab and are same size.
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Post by DragonChyld on May 25, 2006 1:30:51 GMT
Nobody mentioned Ranger.....
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Post by Phantanya on May 25, 2006 4:10:38 GMT
My bad...Shadow dancers are by far the worst class....forgot all about them. I have one that I am acutally pumping up to LL just to see what happens. But since everything has true seeing and the Hips either doesnt work or is buggy against everything past farm the hide and move silently skills are pretty useless. I pumped them up in hopes that future changes would make them useful. I really really have tried to see if hips works in any area and it just doesnt. Someone said it breaks off attacks....but I have yet to have it work....and like I said I have maxed out hide and move silently.
Peace, Phantanya
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Post by doomsdaybringer on May 25, 2006 4:23:34 GMT
it does break off attack!!!!!!!!!!!!! if they dont have see invisable or true seeing and less skill poing in spot or listern then ur hide and move silent skill
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Post by sabregirl on May 25, 2006 5:17:44 GMT
Nobody mentioned Ranger..... Rangers are NOT a bad class - having just immortalized one and hung out with two pretty nice ones Now I wouldn't want to take all 40 levels in ranger, even though their spells and summons improve at 40 it just isn't enough to offset giving up things like epic dodge or weapon master benefits. Especially since rangers are often rapier specialists and blade thirst only works on slashing weapons But their class secret is very nice and you only need 25 for that. Favored enemies are very helpful since most of the REALLY nasty things in the mod belong to only a few major groups of creatures. Dual wield for free and tons of skill points, what's not to like? I gotta agree on shadowdancer though, stumbled upon the class secret location and STILL have never found any characters that could actually make use of it . . . I wonder though if some use could be made of the hide and move silently skills - like some areas where some sort of scripted check would allow a hidden party member to run forward and say disable defensive systems? Without disabling, things could get really horrible - making it worthwile to have someone with stealth around, possibly giving the SD class a boost . . just a crazy idea. -S
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Post by Phantanya on May 25, 2006 15:47:34 GMT
Like I said...hips is pretty much useless at high levels. Think about it.That is 4 variables it must overcome. What mob of monsters does not have something that can overcome any of SD use of hips. If it does break off attacks at higher lvls then I have yet to see it in action. I try over and over to use it and it simply does not work. All it ever does for me is slow down my movement and ensure that whatever is chasing me gets me. Perhaps I simply need to have hide and move silently pumped up over the 80s for it to actually work anywhere. If that is the case then I would love to find the gear that lets me get the skills that high. Peace, Phantanya
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Post by hfb on May 26, 2006 12:21:49 GMT
Greetings,
Re: SD weakness. IMO, going with 30 lvls of SD is euphamistically sub-optimal. The *limited duration* soak (20/+10) is the only really attractive thing about it.
However, for maximal dexer tank-itude it is really hard to beat a Monk 35/SD 5 or Monk 30 / SD 5 / HS 5 (for the post-20 feats more so than the secret). The point: SD is a really only a splash class. It does not seem to have a viable "top end" niche. So, as a primary class it is IMO the worst since BG gets saves and sneak and a cool "utility belt" of gizmos.
Cheers,
The Dancer
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Post by SallerAseph on May 26, 2006 12:38:15 GMT
I would like to chime in on Delfestra Ruinworth's post about the PaleMaster. I have played exclusively wizards on Higher Ground, and to make a change I have now tried to play as a PaleMaster. My thoughts and concerns are very well summed up in Delfestras post (good work Delfestra) - bottom line is I believe a wizard/sorc at the same level as a PM will be strictly superior in any area for the reasons Delfestra mentioned. As a comment to FunkySwerves remark either in this thread or another that the PMs get better defense than the wizards/sorcs, I would argue the other way around. I do get a higher AC, but its not high enough to make a difference in the high level areas like the desert. AC is not the main deal for a caster, conceal is in my honest opinion. I have a lvl 52 archlich that has 103 AC buffed, and 50% conceal from displacement spell (best I can get) - and neither of these make a difference in for instance the desert/ssithrak dimension. Epic warding will save my butt for some time. If I am out of wardings, death is swift and certain (in few seconds). This is not so for wizards I believe - mainly because of the good buffs (Ethereal Visage) as well as other scaling spells. I have seen wizards running around deserts with nothing but premonition, EV, energy buffer, *no epic warding* and the rest of the usual spelll buffs and being very much alive and successful. All being said, I will still play my beloved archlich to level 60, because of all the time and effort I have put into her. And its perhaps harder than being a wiz/sorc, but that also means its a greater challenge. And I dont have to wear a water ring either (and that is actually really cool !) Possible solutions (not very well thought through, so I just throw them out there for comments and to try and be constructive) : * Being a true undead, I dont thin kI am that ? (meaning harm still harms me and heal pots still heal me)Getting to be a true undead would also put spells like negative energy burst into a new perspective - healing me and harming the opponents (thus making another substitute for a Ethereal visage that was sacrificed - PMs would be harder to kill since they would keep healing themselves even while taking damage). Getting to be a true undead would be my greatest wish for a PM change on server. * Stone bones spell - IF I get to be a true undead, this spell could act as a "PMs Ethereal Visage" given some small modifications (perhaps pump AC somewhat more ?) * One of the major benefits of a PM is the ablility to drain hit points (out of a role playing perspective) or stun things via ghoul touch/PM ability. I realize other casters can do this to some extend as well, but if the tensers transformation spell was as effective for PMs as for wizards/sorcs, I would really have great fun ghoul touching everything in sight, then drain it to kingdom come, finally to slay it with a Finger of Death (alternatively if I was a true undead, see point above) * Looking into the PMs undead graft DC - not sure what it is to be honest, but I have never gotten it to connect, and therefore stopped using it. This would enable a PM to strategically stop a melee monster for a while so you can get away or do nasty stuff (drain/vamp touch comes to mind) * Not making so many monsters immune to level/ability drain. I am under the impression that the energy drain spell is potentially cool for a PM but always close to useless (it seems everything is immune to this). However for things that are death immune, level draining them would be a good backup plan to have. Same thing goes for disease and curse/Fear - these could be very good spells for a PM, primary use would be to get the saves of the opponent lowered so that it would be easier to land a fatal wail/Finger/energy drain etc. These suggestions may be too powerful, I leave that up to the DMs to decide. Hopefully they can serve as impulses at the very least. If you DMs want to test stuff out for PMs, I would be very happy to help ! Hopefully somebody made it to the bottom of this long thread See you all on server and keep up the great work.
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Post by FunkySwerve on May 26, 2006 17:37:01 GMT
Interesting ideas guys, keep em coming. Saller, a PM can get around a 120 ac (wizards and sorcs can break 100 without any PM bonus). Investing in something with 20/- pierce or higher will also help quite a bit in the ssithraks, and against devariels. And very little is immune to lvl/ability drain in legendary areas, except bosses . . . Funky
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Post by maljin on May 26, 2006 18:00:27 GMT
Hello,
as far as I know pm's have problems with undead because of the immunity to death magic, level drain, and so on...and because every undead is healed when affected by negative nergy. Instead of giving more/better elemental damge spells (like fireball, chain lighting, ...) a pm could try to dominate undead. A pm wants to achieve lichdom/immortality trough undeath so why he should try to kill them? Let undead creatures fight for "their master". A way to implement this would be some sort of 'turn undead' ability (like cleric), but the ability shouldn't turn them, it would rebuke them (something evil clerics are able to do in d&d). Another way to get a small army of undead would be to change the spell control undead (cleric 6, wizard 7). I think this spell is pretty nice, altough it only affects one target and is blocked by immunity to mind affecting spells (I think). I don't know the spells high level pm's normally use, but if control undead was changed a bit, they would maybe have a better stand against undead.
maljin
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Post by Bakchuda on May 26, 2006 18:06:57 GMT
Re: Dancer on SD being a splash class
You could have said that about RDD before it was enhanced. The fact that there was some consideration of making a SD focused build by making an SD secret which needs 25 levels of it shows that some DM thought someday they would get back around to reworking SD. Just a small counterpoint there.
Re Funky on lvl/ability drain spells from PM: problem for most of those spells (Curse, Enervation, Energy drain) is their range (touch or short) and the number of targets (Single). Since there is no point in trying to ED a level 50+ mob to death, these spells are obviously meant to lower saves to allow wails and other such spells. But being a single-target spell makes that rather pointless, since the battles are far to hectic to keep track of which mob you cursed to know if he's vulerable. Making them AoE (even with a Medium area) would be great for dropping the guard on a tight pack of Sssisth or sandies.
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