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Post by pathogen on Jun 24, 2006 10:49:29 GMT
I am going to try to remain calm here, as the following bug totally ruined my first immo run that I had almost finished (we were literally half-way across the final zone).
If you try casting a spell in the pocket dimension, and it starts to warp you back after the 45-second time limit, you will be stuck in the pocket dimension.
Forever--Until the server resets.
Logging in and out doesn't work.
You can't teleport to party leader, as the run doesn't allow that.
Having a party member at least come up and kill you doesn't work (even if that would also screw your immo run, but at least you'd be able to leave the pocket), as PVP is turned off.
A wizard, i couldn't even use Gate to make Balors kill me, as that spell is conveniently turned off there.
A person who warps in and then warps out can't take you back with them.
Congratulations, you have on your hands a completely fool-proof bug! There are literally no warnings for it on the pocket dimension ring, nor are there any work-arounds, and when I went searching for a DM (there were none on, in any of the servers), I discovered another person who said he had the exact same problem YESTERDAY.
For the foreseeable future, Caelabrion the level 40 wizard is trapped in the pocket dimension, prevented from becoming immortal not by lack of skill, but by accidentally making your pocket dimension not work right. In addition, I am left with a teleport ring with about 6 uses left on it, and an entire Abyss to run back through. It's bad enough that it can be hard to get an immo run going in the first place.
FOR THAT MATTER, I find the entire pocket dimension thing ludicrous to begin with, especially the timer. If you are trying to challenge casters, you aren't--you're only forcing a major inconvenience on them. You make the call: Does having only 45 seconds to rest challenge me, or is it just a pain in the ass? You also basically force the character to buff manually, since the autobuffer doesn't in combat, which is more than likely what the caster will teleport back into after his 45-second timeout is completed, since the creatures respawn quickly. So in essence, the entire purpose of the autobuffer, which is to save time, aggravation, and quickslots, is defeated.
It's OK though. I have a stress ball somewhere around here.
Please fix this bug immediately, so no one else has to suffer through it. It is major, and there is no work-around without a DM present.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Jun 24, 2006 13:06:58 GMT
It's been fixed as far as possible - it used to cut out whenever someone joined or left party. It's unrelated to casting spells as near as we've been able to tell. Perhaps the problem lies with using the autocaster, but if so then it's officially unfixable. In any case, getting out of there is simple. Port to someone in a portable zone. And for the record, having a hissy is a poor way to get someone to help you.  I'll see if I can't put in some sort of safeguard, regadless. Funky |
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Post by archmage on Jun 24, 2006 13:24:54 GMT
In any event, buffing in combat is a skill. It is also a skill best learned as early as possible, because believe me, you'll need it later.
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Post by pathogen on Jun 24, 2006 14:23:13 GMT
In any event, buffing in combat is a skill. It is also a skill best learned as early as possible, because believe me, you'll need it later. Pressing lots of buttons in exact succession while being attacked is a skill? Not really. Using proper tactics is a skill. Buffing in combat requires. . . Selecting Ethereal Visage, and clicking on my portrait. Then clicking Premonition, and clicking on my portrait. Then. . . Maybe they should put a note in the autobuffer description. . . "Oh hey, by the way, this is totally useless in the Abyss, so get ready to re-arrange your quickslots at that point in time." It has nothing at all to do with buffing in combat when I need a particular Spell Mantle, Acid Sheath, or whatever short-duration spell that isn't worth casting straight off the autobuffer, or need to re-buff something that's been eaten through by a dispel or too much damage. The autobuffer is meant to defeat the brainless, boring, time and slot-consuming activity of clicking ten buttons in a row to buff, which is what happens on every other server. In the Abyss I can't do that--because apparently making me do the same thing the long way is challenging? No, it's just a hassle. There's nothing to learn. The only time it would become challenging is if I got aggro from a monster while buffing (more likely in drow areas where the mobs love to gank my wizard, even if he is standing 90 feet away and hasn't cast an offensive spell yet). in which case, buff time is over anyway until someone deals with the monster. I even recall hearing somewhere on this very board that an auto-buffer that works during combat is planned at some point. That would be nice. True, but going through the effort of running through both Lolth and the Abyss for the first time ever (which is a difficult thing to do for a wizard), and then being cut short by an incredibly aggravating bug that ruins the entire run, is an experience that would make some people pull out their hair. Try to appreciate my situation. Not listing any warnings anywhere (that I can find) about a major bug that you knew about is not likely to win you many points, either. The easy safeguard to me would be to take out the timer, which in my opinion serves no real purpose, and to add in a "Take me back" button on the ring. The trade-off is inherent--I can either buff inside the pocket while the tanks (who pretty much never have to rest and in my experience have very, very little patience to wait on wizards) continue to work away, and thereby risk losing out on experience, or I can go back and buff in combat if I so choose. Seems far better to me than living with a bug that can really ruin an immo run, or at the very least make it take twice as long as before. At the very least, put a warning on the ring--this is not a surprise that many people would like. I'm less upset, since the remainder of the group couldn't kill the final boss anyway (and I doubt we could have even with my presence), but it's still aggravating, and in my opinion it's just too big of a bug to let sit. In any event, thank you for your prompt response. |
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Post by archmage on Jun 24, 2006 14:46:51 GMT
I dont quickslot a single one of my buffs, and I constantly buff in combat. the trick you ask? The radial, learn to use it. I'm pretty much to the point i can cast spells from the radial as fast as i can quickslotted spells, I use it all the time for metamagic'ing spells on the fly with my sorc as well as for buffing. Its definitely a skill and a VERY useful one. If you cast your buffs in the correct order from most useful to fluff spells, i dont even take much damage even standing in the desert swarmed by enemies. And the reason I said you should learn it, is as a mage, you are going to be getting dispelled in the more difficult areas, so its better to learn the skill early.
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Post by pathogen on Jun 24, 2006 14:51:46 GMT
I dont quickslot a single one of my buffs, and I constantly buff in combat. the trick you ask? The radial, learn to use it. I'm pretty much to the point i can cast spells from the radial as fast as i can quickslotted spells, I use it all the time for metamagic'ing spells on the fly with my sorc as well as for buffing. Its definitely a skill and a VERY useful one. If you cast your buffs in the correct order from most useful to fluff spells, i dont even take much damage even standing in the desert swarmed by enemies. And the reason I said you should learn it, is as a mage, you are going to be getting dispelled in the more difficult areas, so its better to learn the skill early. That doesn't take into account the fact that I could just as easily train myself on my quickslots than I could on my radial menu, which I assure you, I know how to use. In fact, I could more easily train myself on quickslots, most likely, since in many cases the quickslots take less clicking. If the radial menu were so great, there wouldn't be quickslots. Also, it's not as if I can't order my buffs from greatest to least on the slots. More to the point, I've actually no idea why radial menu would be preferable to quickslots for anything. I could also memorize where in my inventory a certain item or stack of potions is. . . Or I could quickslot it. Hmm. |
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Post by FunkySwerve on Jun 24, 2006 16:11:50 GMT
Pressing lots of buttons in exact succession while being attacked is a skill? No, buffing in combat is a skill, one which you pretty clearly haven't learned, judging by that remark. It's called Greater Sanctuary. It is your friend. How about, "Oh hey, by the way, if you can't get far enough away from combat to use this in the longest area on the server, you are in for a world of pain later on."? Actually, it was put in to save quickslots. Somewhat amusing to have someone tell me why I did something, in any case. It was never meant to be the sole recourse for buffing. If you can't learn to fire off one or two spells quickly, you are in for a world of hurt later. I'd suggest hotkeying greater sanc, and using it. And if you can't get over your 'there's nothing to learn' attitude, you probably wont last long here. I'm STILL learning things, I've already probably forgotten more about NWN than you currently know, no offense. Yup, it's in the works. It's hard to empathize with someone who complains for the sake of complaining. I mean, seriously, you posted saying that we should remove 'useless' random loot because it was too hard to accumulate gold.  As far as the bug, as I already explained, we don't know what causes it, so it's kinda difficult to 'warn' people about in any helpful manner. What would you do, anyway, not rest in the Abyss? Please. Oh, by the way, something bad might happen to you at some point. Plan accordingly. All that time spent whining about how hard it is to buff in combat, and you can't figure out why we have the timer?  It's to keep you on your toes. The PPD is there to allow characters a place to rest, not so they can settle in and write War and Peace. There are other reasons as well, involving exploits, that I'm not going to get into. In any case, this is not exactly a common bug. If it were, it'd have been squashed long ago. The only time I ever got stuck in the PPD was back when someone leaving or joining the party would strand you there. That happened far more often that the current bug, if still infrequently, so it was much easier to track down and fix. You need to sit down, take a deep breath, and get some perspective. I don't have a magic wand that I wave every time I need to fix a bug. I have to find it first, and neither whining nor uninformed opinions is going to make that happen any faster. The likely cause of the bug is a quirk in the game engine, like the one that breaks action queues when party members join or leave a party, or even something as general as an action stack overflow. If bugs of that sort weren't extremely difficult to pinpoint it'd be fixed already. In any case, I don't need some opinionated and clueless noob deriding me for failing to fix bugs. We have fewer bugs than the OC, at present, and that's saying something, because multiplayer adds about a half zillion to the roster, and we have many more complex systems interacting. So, what can you do about it until the bug is dealt with? For starters, I'd avoid using the autocaster in the PPD, or doing anything besides resting, for that matter. If you want to to take a more active role, you can flag down a dm when you are able to find one, and have them help you test it, by seeing whether, for example, using the autocaster (or doing xtz) breaks the return port consistently, and having the dm porting you out if/when you get stuck. For my part, I'll try to come up with a nonexploitable safeguard against getting stuck, until I can track down the bug itself. Funky |
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Post by hiryuu on Jun 24, 2006 16:21:54 GMT
Pressing lots of buttons in exact succession while being attacked is a skill? Not really. Using proper tactics is a skill. Buffing in combat requires. . . Selecting Ethereal Visage, and clicking on my portrait. Then clicking Premonition, and clicking on my portrait. Then. . . First, if you're jumping into a hot situation, cast Greater Sanctuary. If you haven't used it before, now is a good time to learn. In later areas, like Illithid, wise use of GS can be the difference between success and a party wipe. Second, close your inventory. HotU added a 'feature' so self-targetted spells can be targetted on items (Sequencer robes, specifically), but I find it extremely annoying. If you don't have your inventory open, you don't need to target the spell. Third, use keyboard shortcuts. I tend to pack time-critical stuff along [shift/control] F1-4, so my left hand can deal with that without pulling my mouse away from the action. (If you don't already, it also helps to keep quicklots like heals and rezes consistent between characters.) |
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Post by pathogen on Jun 24, 2006 17:29:45 GMT
Pressing lots of buttons in exact succession while being attacked is a skill? No, buffing in combat is a skill, one which you pretty clearly haven't learned, judging by that remark. It's called Greater Sanctuary. It is your friend. I like how it's automatically assumed I know nothing when someone disagrees with me in this topic. Good grief. Buffing is buffing. You do it in the order of best buff to least buff if you *have* to do it in combat (or any other time, really). There is nothing in that which requires any complicated tactical awareness. I was instructed by my party to stay close. This is wise advice on their part for several reasons. . . I can't know if all the spawns have been spawned, or if they've recharged. If they have, I'll likely spawn them by running across the zone to get outside of "you can't talk when you're this excited" area of effect. Spawns in Lolth were coming back much more frequently. Why would I be taking chances and disregarding party advice? So then you endorse the idea that there's any point to the fairly long and annoying re-buff that mages have to do whenever they have rested? I dunno, if hitting all those buttons is you're thing and you never get sick of it, then fine. When did I ever say it was so hard to fire off spells? The point is that the autobuffer, which by its basic implementation was meant to save quickslots, isn't here. You are in the process of constructing an autobuffer that does do this, which by extrapolation means that you also find this to be a problem. Why are we arguing about this when we apparently agree, again? Ha ha way to misinterpret the direction I was going with that argument, which has nothing to do with this topic anyway, but oh well. My skepticism rises when I can immediately announce what my problem is to the server, and I get a response of someone having that happen to them under the exact same circumstances within a few moments. Really now, I can only analyze the evidence I have. When you are getting people trapped in the outer cosmos, and then having to warp back to town, messing up their immo run (which happens to feature a ring for resting that has charges--a ring retrieved from the drow area which will now be at the very least partially used up, further messing up the run), which is arguably one of, if not the most important runs of the module, it may be time to implement your idea in a different way. My argument is that you're not making it challenging to buff, you're just making it annoying. There's a difference. The demons don't attack the mage who needs to buff unless he's completely foolish and walks right into them, or attempts to buff within attack of opportunity range. The drow, uniquely up to this point, like to attack my mage no matter what he is doing, in which case it's not really a matter of buffing smartly. From my position you're trying to pretend buffing is a huge tactical excercise, when it's really not. It's buffing--there's no real challenge. If I were getting dispelled that would be one thing, but that's not happening too much at this point either. Instead, what your 45-second system is doing (and only doing) at this point is making me use up quickslots when it was made clear to me that I would not need to use any for the simple purpose of a pre-combat buff. I already have other buffs quick-slotted in anticipation of needing them several times or to replace them when dispelled or when I die, but I feel that this is a seperate issue. I realize that, but I'm not asking you to thumb through reams of NWN scripting to look for the problem, I'm suggesting an equitable solution of re-arranging the system you have in place so that there is NO probability of it happening, because it really can ruin a person's night, which to me suggests an element of priority. Work-arounds are easier than the fine-toothed comb approach. I am fully aware of NWN's bugginess and BioWare's seeming inability to fix long-standing issues (and the unlikelihood of these things ever being fixed in the advent of NWN2 and certain press releases). And I would imagine it annoys me about half as much as the person who is responsible for making third-party, sometimes by necessity patchwork fixes for the problem. Well you know what sir, I will do exactly that. I should make clear that this is easily the best NWN mod I have yet encountered, and that's saying something, having encountered a lot. However, I'm more likely, as anyone is, to post complaints for improvement than I am to sit about and lavish praise about how much I like this or that. Human nature. Perhaps I do so with a bit more vitriol than some people, but hey. |
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Post by FunkySwerve on Jun 24, 2006 19:13:27 GMT
No one assumed anything. It was blatantly obvious from your remarks that you weren't using GS. Everyone who replied told you to use it, for that very reason. And frankly, if we had assumed it, it wouldn't be far wrong. Even vets of other servers pick up many a trick when they come here. This server is far less forgiving than most, and this is much more the case in the post-immortal areas, as you are about to discover. My comment was tongue-in-cheek. Generally speaking, you shouldn't stray from your party, but it is safe to traverse recently cleared areas. One of the major reasons we added the rest restrictions to the abyss was that mages could (and did) easily wander off a short distance and rest as much as they pleased. Really, you shouldn't have an issue using the autobuffer in there, of all places. I do. Otherwise I would have the autobuffer instacast, as with the contingency spell. It also won't be nearly as long when you figure out what spells you don't need (or, in some cases, shouldn't use) in each set of areas. When you complained about difficulties with buffing.. This simple fact is that you wouldn't be complaining about this if you had a little experience in later areas in the mod. Think of the auttocaster as training wheels. Some vet casters still use it to buff after a pause in the action, but it's too big a pain to reset the various buffs you need for different areas, and unless you do, you wind up firing off a lot of unneeded spells (for which vets will have a chuckle at your expense over voice)  . It's handy, sure, but to rely on it and then complain that you can't buff, and that WE are making buffing hard, is just silly. It's provided as a convenience, and between it and the radial you do not need to use hotkeys for buffs. |
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Post by cathedralmaster on Jun 24, 2006 19:19:44 GMT
As far as the bug, as I already explained, we don't know what causes it, so it's kinda difficult to 'warn' people about in any helpful manner. What would you do, anyway, not rest in the Abyss? Please. Oh, by the way, something bad might happen to you at some point. Plan accordingly. Maybe you could put up a sign somewhere in town saying "These are some of the most annoying bugs we're currently hearing about, if you encounter them then send us feedback on our forums please. Here they are:" and then list them. If you knew about a bug this bad, you should say something so that people would know to be on the lookout. It helps us, it could help you. How does not telling anyone about a bug you seem to know about help anyone? As for the whole "Real men/women/small furry creatures from alpha centauri don't need to autocast" argument, given what he was talking about, not being able to autocast is like being forced to walk everywhere instead of running - it is just an unnecessary annoyance (but an understandable one if due to an extremely hard to fix bug). If you've developed walking skills to get by that, good for you, but that in no way makes it any less of an unnecessary annoyance. |
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Post by FunkySwerve on Jun 24, 2006 19:32:14 GMT
Guys, please read and consider the posts before responding. I've already addressed those points.
As for the bug sign, again, there's little point to 'warning' people about something if you can't tell them how to avoid the danger. If there's a bug, we hear about it, and no one even reads the signs we already have. Do a quick search and you'll find someone else whining about being overwhelmed with information because they didn't think to look under 'Blackguard' on the Class Abilities board for information about blackguards. We try to limit clutter as much as possible by limiting sinage to useful information. And, of course, maintaining that sign would be more work I don't need, though as I said we really don't experience many bugs.
As for the rest, its not just that they don't NEED to autocast, it's that it begomes advanageous not to, and that until that point it isn't nearly as hard to do as the OP is claiming. All of which I said above.
Funky
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Post by fusa on Jun 24, 2006 19:50:19 GMT
The auto caster can be used right before entering combat if its activated then when entering the combat area you select one which activates the casting. But its usually best to just cast etheral visage and premonition, energy buffer then cats grace, maybe owls wisom (if you have a monk lvl or need high will saves) and endurance (but you should keep con maxed anyway). I use the auto caster before changing area or during a pause in combat, mostly because I'm too lazy to cast them individually or busy with something else. Since the quickslots are so limited its best to keep them as full as possible with spells, (regular, silenced, empowered and maxed). Even when the auto caster is made usuable duing combat I would still only cast 3 spells before attacking (GS EV and premonition) during a tough fight.
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Post by Dannecrot on Jun 24, 2006 20:20:40 GMT
I'm sorry, but I couldn't resist posting here. People seem to think they can argue with the DM's who created the module.  Although I must admit that these huge posts which are running here with everyone quoting one another was very interesting, and IMHO everyone made a lot of sense (although I admit I'm not so logical at times so it's hard for me to tell ), but I think that these arguments aren't going anywhere. pathogen - The auto-caster and planer-ring can be annoying at times and maybe not 100% foolproof, but believe me, the DM's here are very good and know what they're doing and I'm sure will take your comments into consideration. I don't know if this was your first immo run, but don't worry, you'll go on more, (the immo run itself isn't too tough) spell casters are the biggest help on these runs and I'm sure your party members will be willing to go slowly if you say you need some time to rest and buff. If you see me online, I'd be more then willing to help you get another immorun going, and join you. No offense meant to anyone, just trying to make some peace here. This is just wasting Funky's valuable time where he could actually be fixing these bugs. |
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Post by liesmith on Jun 24, 2006 21:16:43 GMT
It's hard to empathize with someone who complains for the sake of complaining. This is a pretty disappointing attitude. I was under the impression that this mod was still under development, and that every player was in some respects a Beta Tester. When Pathogen makes a pretty legitimate complaint about a frustrating bug, though, he is met with condescension. Why is that? His complaints are pretty reasonable for the most part. There doesn't seem to be any warning about the bug he experienced, and the autobuffer not working in his situations could well be frustrating. Sure, you guys know to deal with it, but does that mean you shouldn't work to make it more convenient? You may have your reasons for keeping things the same, but that is no excuse for getting defensive and dismissing any criticism out of hand. All you need to do is explain yourself and most people will get where you are coming from. To the poster above me: I should hope that you could argue with the creators of the mod. If they make something that you feel doesn't work, you should be allowed to tell them and have them at least consider it. Higher Ground is a great mod in part because of the dedicated community. To suggest that that community's input and criticism is neither wanted nor needed is nothing less than short sighted. |
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As far as the bug, as I already explained, we don't know what causes it, so it's kinda difficult to 'warn' people about in any helpful manner. What would you do, anyway, not rest in the Abyss? Please. Oh, by the way, something bad might happen to you at some point. Plan accordingly.
It's to keep you on your toes. The PPD is there to allow characters a place to rest, not so they can settle in and write War and Peace. There are other reasons as well, involving exploits, that I'm not going to get into. 
. It's handy, sure, but to rely on it and then complain that you can't buff, and that WE are making buffing hard, is just silly. It's provided as a convenience, and between it and the radial you do not need to use hotkeys for buffs.
