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Post by FunkySwerve on Jan 30, 2006 22:25:30 GMT
Can't mod ki strike, it's hardcoded. WM don't really need any help, though I would've modded it anyway were it possible in the name of making abilities useful. As for fighters, I just don't see them as a class people oughtta take to high levels - WM kinda has the offensive peak of their profession covered. They make a great filler class for extra feats, but I just can't see a good reason to go all 40, that'd be feat overload, esp. with LL. Gunning for 10 of each elemental resist feat? Sure, go 35 fighter. And if you want defense instead of offense, theres the DD. So, gross numbers of feats aside, it looks like the only plausible way to expand a high level fighter's repetoire and keep them distinct from the WM and DD would be defensively, for those who want the DD and dont want dwarves. Higher Armor bonus isn't an option, given that there are sets of armor planned that can max out at 20, with no special gear set. No real advantage there. DDs already get damage resistance. Giving fighters the same would pretty much be like stripping a req from the DD, though they get another stray perk or two. Maybe a bonus to shield and armor ACs, but I can't really think of a good rationale for that. Other ideas? Funky
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Post by ocath on Jan 30, 2006 23:40:14 GMT
What about doing some sort of damage reduction/resistance to one element or maybe two? Allow the fighter to choose which would be best. I guess from a role playing view point, it would show the dedication to their martial prowess. Not sure if this is possible, just a quick idea?
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Post by hfb on Jan 31, 2006 13:21:13 GMT
Greetings,
What do you say to treating them like rangers: a special gear set keyed to the str-based ftr rather than the dex-based ranger. (I like this idea better, my self.) Maybe weapon, shield, armor and helm rather than the things the rangers can find. This would also have the 25 lvl req like rangers, etc. BTW, would be very nice to be able to pick the weapon/shield type with this sort of scenario to allow for variability of builds. May be a store type bit with one pick only from a certain number of pages or something. Eg. all weapons available on a weapon page: choice of one and maybe the same for whatever other gear types were to be made available. Not more than one of each type of gear per character and not transferable.
Just my spinning thoughts,
The Dancer
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Post by FunkySwerve on Jan 31, 2006 16:29:46 GMT
@ ocath - I still can't think of a rationale for that. @ hfb - But WHAT would do on the items? Same problem as above post. Funky
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Post by Grogbot on Jan 31, 2006 20:30:29 GMT
In looking at how to help poor old Mr Fighter, lets look at the things that peeps are concerned about in combat:
Easily covered elsewhere ========================
AC: - Funky said that is covered in upcoming gear. Expertise and Imp Exp perhaps?
AB: - This is covered by, variously, AA & WM
DR: - The domain of the DD, and to a lesser extent, the barb
Crits: - WM again
Elemental resist: - hard to justify really, unless there is some sort of "School of elements" that fighters must graduate from (eg, extra fire damage at the expense of cold vunerability); but this is covered by Subraces and, without the penalties, by choice of Feats
Attacks per round: - high BAB ensures this if taken pre-20th
Movement: - everyone is already hasted, and extra speed is the domain of the monk, a few secret races, the Freedom spell and (for a minor boost) the barbarian, and Dogde/Mobility/Spring are easy enough to get given the # of feats.
SR:- covered by the Monk and a few lucky subraces, and hard to justify (better suited to 1st edition Unearthed Arcana Barbarian)
On the boundary ================
What about crits? Dear I mention the Dev Crit? Although this is now the domain of the assassin, can we do something similar for the fighter? With level restrictions and pre-reqs and so forth?
What about extra damage? Pure DR-blasting physical damage is not really covered anywhere.
What about saves? Although gear endowed partial immunities somewhat negate this, what about bonuses to saves? "Through sheer grit". Treading on the Monk's territory?
What about partial physical damage immunities? Already covered by other gear?
For Dex fighters, Uncanny Dodge is a lovely gift. Save splashing on other classes. But not really talking about Dexers here.
New ideas ==========
How about a "whetstone" that enchants weapons to +10 or +12 or +20? Must be Ftr 25, can't transfer etc...
Vampiric regneration as a permanent ability? "He draws strength from every telling blow"
Specific spell immunities? "Through years of exposure he learnt to ignore the Implosion"
"Sleeps like a baby" - modifies random-spawn script on resting (so always no trigger in areas where rest is actually possible)?
Anyway, just some ideas and summary of earlier arguments ...
Grog
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Post by Balduvard on Feb 1, 2006 1:05:00 GMT
How about a "whetstone" that enchants weapons to +10 or +12 or +20? Must be Ftr 25, can't transfer etc... This would probably be the simplest and least contradicting idea that I can see. This could be based off of the Assassin's Scabbard in terms of weapon selection. A fighter's rigorous martial training would enable them to know exactly how to handle various weapons in a manner that results in maximum efficiency (unlike the WM who gets their bonuses for one). As such, once per day the fighter may select a weapon. Their training provides them with the knowledge to use that weapon more effectively than other classes, granting an additional bonus to attack rolls. I think anything higher than +12 would be too high for a requirement of only 25 fighter levels, so I'd say +12 for 25 would be good (if you want higher, go talk to a mage).
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Post by FunkySwerve on Feb 1, 2006 5:52:04 GMT
I'm inclined to agree, save that I would probably go with a +1 to the current bonus at 25, increasing to +2 at 35. Or something along those lines. Thing is, I don't know if that really makes it worth it, and I'm not comfortable going much migher on those bonuses. Maybe a flat +12 is best, save that that wouldn't be any higher than whats available ab-wise now, on some weapons, and will be lower than the last group of weapons. It WOULD be more damage, and penetrate damage resistance better, but that doesn't seem like much. Funky
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Post by hfb on Feb 1, 2006 13:36:44 GMT
Greetings,
Maybe we could take the theme of "brute physicality". The physical aspect dictates that in the realm of physical dmg (as opposed to elemental), the ftr reigns supreme, both offensively and defensively. The brute aspect dictates that dexers need not apply. Set not usable by those with dex over 20 or 32 with items.
The following style of "ftr gear" might be appropriate:
Shield, Tower: "The Brute's Bulwark" (possibly large so size class small can also play) --25% immunity to bps**** --+12 shield bonus --+6 str/con/dex
Helm: "The Brute's Brazen Helm" --Mind immunie (key for loss of immo crown) --DR +10/10 or more**** --True Seeing/ultravision --mmunie: Bigby’s Interposing Hand, Blind, Mass Blind, Sunbeam, others or none??? --Defensive awareness****
Weapon: (all available but with the same stats; may only possess 2 at any one time to suit the dual wielders; non-transferable): "'Weapon type X' of the Brute'" --2d12 pbs **** --+12 to hit and dmg --10 vamp regen (playing off the Grogbot) --Immunie: disarm**** --+20 discipline --Requires Epic Specialization of the type of the weapon used
So, just making this up on the fly and with only some attention to various aspects of balance. I tried to use the immo set and the ranger set as "benchmarks" of a sort. The "****" indicate the high points of the "brute physicalist" theme. Hope this is at least thought provoking.
*Moshes off somewhere else in the pit chanting "Twist of Cain"
The Dancer
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Post by Ralkain on Feb 1, 2006 20:38:22 GMT
In looking at how to help poor old Mr Fighter... Well the one thing I think would really help characters with lots of fighter levels would be Epic Dodge. It seems a good representation of what their extreme skill/prowess would grant using experience and skill to avoid blows instead of dex... I would prefer this just be granted once they reach X level in fighter (25?) and perhaps talk to someone or something. But if it has to be part of their special gear set so be it (i.e., the special gear set should be seperate). Dave.
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Post by doomsdaybringer on Feb 2, 2006 1:40:41 GMT
In looking at how to help poor old Mr Fighter... Well the one thing I think would really help characters with lots of fighter levels would be Epic Dodge. It seems a good representation of what their extreme skill/prowess would grant using experience and skill to avoid blows instead of dex... I would prefer this just be granted once they reach X level in fighter (25?) and perhaps talk to someone or something. But if it has to be part of their special gear set so be it (i.e., the special gear set should be seperate). Dave. i strongly oppose this idea it would really unbalance the str build vs dex build. plus it would seirously underpower and de-mean dex build with rogure/sd who do have epic dodge. i mean anyone can build a good basic tank with 25 lvl of fighter but it would get some planing to get epic dodge since it require two feature both are only access by dex-ish class and one of them is only access to rogue and sd!!!! and so if would see to me really unfair to grant a lvl25 fighter epic dodge. may just give them normal dodge feature? or give lvl 25 a nature +1 regen or 3/-dr?
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Post by Ralkain on Feb 2, 2006 18:47:01 GMT
but it would get some planing to get epic dodge since it require two feature both are only access by dex-ish class and one of them is only access to rogue and sd!!!! and so if would see to me really unfair to grant a lvl25 fighter epic dodge. The point is they were looking for how to give str fighter builds a niche and epic dodge makes total sense for a very high level figher. I don't feel that it demeans dex builds at all (having many epic dodge characters) since they can get it with 10-13 levels of a class and the fighter X would be much higher. If you think 25 is too low, I agree, but that's the level they seem to want specials to be at. Personally, if it was me, I'd grant Defensive Roll at L25 Fighter and Epic Dodge at L35 Fighter, but I think they were only looking for one... Seems a perfectly reasonably niche for the highly skilled warrior. They would use skill/experience to avoid a blow by knowing what the next blow will be, even before it began (Master of Sinanju anyone . And granting a 3rd class very limited access to Epic Dodge doesn't seem abusive at all to me. Funky rightly says that fighter is really a splash class, rarely do folks take more than 6-8 levels in it, this might make it worth it to take a ton of fighter levels. Dave.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Feb 3, 2006 1:12:54 GMT
if it was me, I'd grant Defensive Roll at L25 Fighter and Epic Dodge at L35 Fighter This actually sounds about right. Maybe throw in the weapon bonus via 'scabbard' and it would be worth it...maybe. Funky
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Post by doomsdaybringer on Feb 3, 2006 2:36:57 GMT
if it was me, I'd grant Defensive Roll at L25 Fighter and Epic Dodge at L35 Fighter This actually sounds about right. Maybe throw in the weapon bonus via 'scabbard' and it would be worth it...maybe. Funky lvl35 seem more reasonable but how about aleast pre requirement of 13 or 12 dex (with out buff)? i mean if a lvl 35 cant even get normal dodge feature epic dodge seem a bit over the top... i do hate to see troll, deep orc, or half ogre lvl35 figher who have 6 dex walking around with epic dodge
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Post by hfb on Feb 3, 2006 13:32:02 GMT
Greetings,
I agree with doomsdaybringer on the epically dodging while epically slow half-ogre. However, if we called it epic parry, my rp side would not cringe as much. So, who knows.
Is there anything hope of the gear set/theme I posted above? I got a thumbs up/"good idea" from a friend of mine in game, but was kinda curious about a wider response.
The Dancer
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Post by FunkySwerve on Feb 3, 2006 15:44:12 GMT
I only resort to gear sets when other options are unpalatable or unworkable, or to shore up a class weakness, and neither of those reasons seem present here. As for your items in particular, each breaks some pretty important rules we follow for items. The helm I like, and it may wind up as loot somewhere, but without defensive awareness.
Funky
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