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Post by nicnik on Jun 27, 2007 16:31:11 GMT
The real answer is it was challenging before the crits got put in for the new players, its the vets that need the the bigger challenges... I agree with you totally. The new change is put in for the vets coz they want a bigger challenge once their all geared up as demi's. It's not at all a walk in a park for a new player. I've been trying to recruit a few players from other servers I played on, with some success. The ones that do not stay is because they find the leveling boring and takes too long to level and to get much better gear. Now this will make it less attractive for "new players". And i think we need to hear the views of new players and not vets. Yup, we did this knowing a number of tweaks would probably be necessary. I have to second a lot of what dom said, as well - a major reason for doing this was to force people to level in areas closer to those designed for their intended level, giving more areas some use again, and providing a more graduated leveling experience. It was NOT designed to make things impossible for newbies, but it certainly will take some getting used to. This is actually one of the more experience-neutral changes we've made, since there's only one item on the server that provides crit immunity, and it's in a set drop in a reletively low-level pre-immortal area. One major concern we have is the potentially huge bump to crit-immune builds over all others, and another is of course the overwhelming damage in some areas. And, of course, if it proves to be too difficult, we can tweak difficulty or set back the difficulty to Normal. Kneejerk posts aren't going to affect that decision, however, we need more input from players over a substantial abount of time. Options at this point include decreasing base damage, decreasing the crit multipliers, adding more crit immune loot, and scaling back the difficulty setting. Please be patient as we collect input, and as you offer it. Funky Thanks, guess I have to wait to see how it turns out before deciding if my build is a bit useless. But sure, I can defeinitely see a huge increase in PM/jugger builds now, unles more crit immune itesm were in place. But once you add more crit immune items, who's not gonna wear them? Makes you wonder why enabled crits in the first place?
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Post by khaine on Jun 27, 2007 17:25:31 GMT
Well, one good thing is that I think we will soon see more MoaD runs - it's reletively easy, and it does drop good weapons. This should help peopl as well, xD.
xD, personally I think its very hard for new players to get on good loot runs anyway - mostly its by the grace of people like delf handing out rare rings that they get onto good runs, xD.
xD.
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Post by Cimion on Jun 27, 2007 18:28:36 GMT
Why not just make harder places to go that don't give any better eq? That way it will always challenge the vets because they will never get the items they need to own the runs. The entire server now is built for the "Haves" crowd which are a minority here. Everyday there are new people coming onto the server, I know, I help them when I can.
People are moving on too quicky eh?
evildeath123 says "So after 6 months of daily playing, I'm still farming runs like Thids, Beholders and Desert looking for gear...it's starting to get repetitive. I was hoping to try Hell in the coming days to try to get my hands on some of the great set loot and BURs to be had there..."
How is that too fast? How is that too easy?
Whoever thinks this had it way easier than the rest of us I think, thats not wrong, just don't assume everyone is the same.
BTW shouldn't I be able to play a lvl 50 toon reasonably equipped with a good party in the sith? Apparently that can't be done anymore.
Cimion
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Post by FunkySwerve on Jun 27, 2007 18:58:38 GMT
Why not just make harder places to go that don't give any better eq? Why on earth would anyone ever go there? You have the risk, and are missing the reward. Im sorry but that's utter nonsense, sort of the battle cry of players that expect to be doing hells runs within a few weeks of coming to the server, PRECISELY BECAUSE the leveling before legendary areas is so easy. This change is intended to improve the server for all players, and to make lowbie leveling less of a grind and a little more challenging. The server is built to cater to everyone, including players that have been here for years. Just because an area exists doesn't mean your character belongs there anytime soon, OR that there aren't dozens of places they DO belong. I can understand the 'I want it all now' mentality caused by seeing some very powerful items being traded on the forums, and the bur subbies listed in the docks, but the server is built to reward play proportionate to time spent. I suspect he could've attempted hells several months ago, but chose not to. Really nothing to do with what we are talking about here, though - the fast-level no-gear syndrome. And remember, many vets spent far longer doing that grind before trying the hells. Newer players tend to fixate on gear and neglect the role of experience and teamwork, as well, again probably because they see the bright and shinies on the trade forums etc. No idea what you are trying to say there. On what basis are you making that claim? If you are running through in a party of two like some posters, and still trying to mass huge groups, then no, it can't, because with that many attackers focused on so few targets there are bound to be many criticals and damage flow will be too erratic. But if you play through the areas as they were meant to be, before extensive customization boosted player power to the sky, I think you'll find they are playable, though of course we'll need more playtest to say for sure. What you need to realize is that player power increases with every single customization, and aside from the occasional nerf, there's been little putshing in the other direction, resulting in an increasingly easy and frenzied leveling experience that leaves newer players with little idea how to play their characters effectively and no oportunity to get the gear they need without the much-bemoaned grinding of areas like beholders. Leveling lowbies has become something to be endured, and not a pleasurable part of the play experience. THAT is what this change is targeted at, not 'catering' to the server elite. Obviously, we don't want to make it so insanely tough that it drives players away, but I just don't think it will, though playtest will tell. Funky
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Post by shadow66 on Jun 27, 2007 19:00:12 GMT
...since there's only one item on the server that provides crit immunity, and it's in a set drop in a reletively low-level pre-immortal area. If you are running through in a party of two like some posters, and still trying to mass huge groups, then no, it can't, because with that many attackers focused on so few targets there are bound to be many criticals and damage flow will be too erratic Funky The one thing I noticed is it has restrictions on it. Is there a chance this item may be updated? Otherwise it won't help many. I totally agree that if two players are massing the bridge in sissy they will die even before the update was put in. But when two players are creaping along and only spawning 3 archers and those three archers take a level 60 down in 2 seconds with back to back crits that is a bit drastic. Yes I know that is why people join partys but when its the middle of the night you have few choices. And I have wiped in a sissy run when we have had 9 players but not with two. Thanks Shadow
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Post by nicnik on Jun 27, 2007 19:14:30 GMT
Let's give funky and whoever else some time to adjust things; there maybe be quite allot to change to make certain area's easier than they are now (or even harder), but I doubt it's something that can be done quickly. Worst case scenario is just revert the update for the time being until it's all sorted out.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Jun 27, 2007 19:16:26 GMT
Nah, it's not even a matter of that. All we'd have to do to switch back is change a setting in the server ini. DMs can even do it from client. Just roll with it for awhile, guys, and then send some feedback our way. The ZOMG This Soxxors stuff will get old fast. Funky
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Post by Yomi on Jun 27, 2007 19:23:16 GMT
First, it's a beta server. We accept some occasional hiccups as the price for having the best NWN server. I assume things will get tweaked. Maybe lower the crit range some. But overall, yes, abode used to be really hard and it was very common for parties to wipe, with the lone high-AC dexer making a valiant last stand before finally succumbing. I'd prefer not to have it be a death trap, but as a lot more people have UR items, not to mention BUR items, it's gotten easier in general. The S'jab guys always used to do crits of some sort, and a lot of characters needed to be careful around them since a lucky sequence of crits would really hurt.
A thought, though perhaps a scripting no-go, would be to have items "degrade" in ability the farther they are away from their plane. Non-LL areas would have all UR and BUR items limited to +14, LL areas +15, parallel dimensions +16, and Hells either unlimited or graduate by level. Artifacts could get one higher. Ideally some of the other properties would be similarly reduced, but that would require a lot more work. If that was done, it would level things out a bit while not removing the worth of the items entirely. Hmm, if some of the BUR races, especially those from parallel dimensions (e.g. erinyes, maelephant, rakshasa) would get similar changes so they're very strong on their plane but less so as they get farther away...
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Post by chainlink on Jun 27, 2007 19:56:17 GMT
Leveling lowbies will always suck for folks that have large numbers of characters as most of them don't show their full potential until the late 30s. When you're on your 40'th toon level 6 somehow loses its excitement.
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Post by Kiarra on Jun 27, 2007 20:05:03 GMT
Leveling lowbies will always suck for folks that have large numbers of characters as most of them don't show their full potential until the late 30s. When you're on your 40'th toon level 6 somehow loses its excitement. And on that note...watch out for the dev criting non- immo dragons.... I got dev critted over and over and over
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Post by bhao on Jun 27, 2007 20:09:55 GMT
more dev crits: lesser vampyrs in gaobins... dc is 36, i believe.
aoo on archers does seem a bit much, considering how often they end up in melee fights.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Jun 27, 2007 20:27:04 GMT
The dev crits are getting removed from everything asap, a little too mean. Funky
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Post by Delfestra Ruinvorn on Jun 27, 2007 21:08:31 GMT
Nah, let Oltum dev crit, he's a very pretty bird.
Seriously - people, calm. This is the *first day* of a major overhaul. If you check out the bug forum, you'll figure out pretty quickly that there are things that need to be worked out.
Any time you have major changes, there has to be some adjustment. Stop, breath, think - and for goodness sake, TRY some of the areas before saying "OMG [censored] TH1S SUXX0RZ!!!1!!1!"
And remember - the DM staff can't fix things if they don't know what the in game effect is. So buckle up your sword belt, take a deep breath, and go try a difficult (for you) run. And then discuss what happened.
And if something is horribly broken, it'll get fixed once the source of the problem becomes apparent. Take a look at all the work Acaos has had to do today, bless his heart (and his coding skills, and the chain around his ankle that keeps him at his desk)
Frankly, I think its a good thing that the lower areas are harder. Some of the best experiences I've had here have come from excessively vile fights. The Infamous 6 Hour Nessus Run comes to mind...
TEAMWORK and party forethought is, and should be, more important than charging forward recklessly like an idiot, counting on your gear to protect you from your own stupidity.
Indeed, I've said it before: STUPID SHOULD HURT.
Keep in mind, while more monsters can crit now, and maybe some more often...their *defenses* haven't changed. For example, you can still use death magic on ssithraks - maybe now though, casters have to do it from behind the tanks, instead of rushing ahead of the tanks and massing a room with themselves in the middle, expecting to be completely invulnerable.
Which, really, is good practice for Hells - a caster trying that in Hell gets killed, and probably wipes his party. So in a way, making it harder earlier could benefit everyone later, since they'll have developed the skills to enter Hell earlier, and win more often. Didn't think of that, didya?
Skill > Gear. Teamwork > Recklessness. And as always...STUPID SHOULD HURT!!
[edit] Watch the language, please. That includes acronyms. Thanks, The management
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Post by bhao on Jun 27, 2007 21:19:48 GMT
Stop, breath, think - and for goodness sake, TRY some of the areas before saying "OMG WTF TH1S SUXX0RZ!!!1!!1!" this always goes both ways. have you been on the ssith bridge since the change or are you just guessing too? it's not really practical to hide from archers behind tanks.
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Post by stonewarrior on Jun 27, 2007 21:20:28 GMT
I have not played yet...but if the hells are also harder (and I am assuming they are) then it would be nice to find something other than a Cyric's Chain or a Generalist +10 or better yet a DUD in hell...especially the deeper layers.
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