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Post by FunkySwerve on Jul 16, 2007 21:13:42 GMT
I hate to argue this, but to say that we won because of a bug isn't necessarily fair or true (unless you are omniscient, which, while you may be close, isn't the case . It would be fair to say the strategy we used came about because of a bug. Had Asmo busted thru the wall, we would have come up with an alternate ad hoc strategy. To suggest that we would have failed if it were working "right" is something nobody can claim to know. (I'm reminded of Napoleon Dynamite claiming to be watching "the worst video of all time", and his brother Kip replying "like anybody could even know that"). Actually, I can claim to know it, but I didn't. I predicted what I saw as the likely outcome. It's not all that tricky or doubtful, either, once you know that the time between minion spawns is drastically reduced in the final form, and having watched your performance on the second form. But, as I already pointed out in a pm, the point I was responding to was a rather inane one anyway. A terrible party can still win a difficult fight given the right bug. And the same bug can impact different parties very differently. Had you not tried to encircle him in a wall of stone, for example, it'd would've had a much lesser impact. Perhaps, but that's not what I saw. And I wasn't distracted by actually having to participate, one of the reasons I observe Asmo fights as well as participating in them. That, and bugfinding - no one reported the bug, interestingly enough, though they had to have noticed it - all the dms watching did. Or perhaps you were too distracted by the heat of battle? In any event, this thread is about rebirth stones, not your asmo fight, so lets keep it on topic, hmm? My remarks were not a condemnation of your skill as players, merely of the effects the rebirth stone abuse had on that skill. Nor were they a comparison between you and other parties that have completed it, many of whom faced other bugs that provided an advantage. It's a BETA server, because we are always changing things, which inevitably leads to bugs, and you still beat a very difficult foe. As I noted in the aforementioned pm, the first party to actually beat him (including myself) didn't have to contend with spawned-in minions, for example. Nor did they have a week's hiatus in which to recharge rest rings and restock, because of a crash (and yes, I did consider counting ring charges, but decided I would rather not know). And yes, you are the ONLY party to have bested him in Hardcore. So far, each Asmo fight has been unique, and it'll likely stay that way for a good while longer, until we are done tweaking him. Funky
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Post by FunkySwerve on Jul 16, 2007 21:21:58 GMT
Whether intentional or not, the only purpose the references to our run serves is to diminish our accomplishment. No, the only purpose it served was to point out the error in Borges' logic. The rest, you are reading into it. See my post above. Funky
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Post by borges on Jul 16, 2007 21:22:00 GMT
Well, I didn't want to deflate you guys at the time, but the reason you made it through was a bug. Asmo's third form lacked the variable needed to enable wall breaking. Given the increased spawn rate in that form, I'm fairly certain you were heading for a wipe, absent that bug. Come on, now. You being "fairly certain [we] were heading for a wipe" doesn't mean that "the reason [we] made it through was a bug." Save the asterisks for Barry Bonds. As for the rest of your post, you are giving the stones way too much credit. For my part, they didn't affect strategy at all, since they are almost worthless to a shifter. Insta-rez in the middle of a Nessus spawn with no buffs = swift death. I don't know how the other members of the party changed their plans, if at all, based on the stones. The "mage tanking Asmo" example is one that clearly wouldn't be possible without stones, but I flatly disagree that it is poor strategy. When one's casting ability is severely impaired--which I admit may be an overstatement (I am not sure of the extent of the spell failure effect that I am taking great pains not to describe in detail here)--soaking damage, however poorly, seems like a reasonable back-up plan. In any case, keeping Asmo busy while the rest of us stabilize sounds like crowd control to me.
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Post by FunkySwerve on Jul 16, 2007 21:48:47 GMT
Well, I didn't want to deflate you guys at the time, but the reason you made it through was a bug. Asmo's third form lacked the variable needed to enable wall breaking. Given the increased spawn rate in that form, I'm fairly certain you were heading for a wipe, absent that bug. Come on, now. You being "fairly certain [we] were heading for a wipe" doesn't mean that "the reason [we] made it through was a bug." Save the asterisks for Barry Bonds. There were no asterisks in my post. Without the bug, you would've been in roughly the same position as with the last form, but having half the time to get rid of spawns and damage him. You weren't even killing off the spawns in that time, in the second form. QED, you were going to wipe, absent a radical shift in approach that greatly increased your effectiveness, and thereby your killrate. Does this mean you were unworthy? Certainly not. No other party has had to contend with crits in that fight, and it's likely too hard, though without having seen an SoR free fight it's difficult for me to say. Please stop reading my remarks as personal attacks, and stay on topic. You seem to be missing my point. By strategy, I am referring to coordination between players to minimize damage intake and maximize output, by having the party members most effective at certain roles positioned to play them. Because the stones allow you to die without fear of respawn, your party seemed to throw strategy out the window, basically treating the damage intake as negligible while failing to realize it's impact on your ability to output damage effectively. I'm referring to group coordination, not individual playstyle. You're right, it isn't poor strategy, it's the opposite of strategy, a team member in the worst possible position, contributing the least possible as a result. Again, you are missing the point. Straregy does not mean having everyone contribute. It means having them all contribute as effectively as possible. The fact that someone is not comletely useless in a role does not mean you are exercising an effective strategy. A seperate question is whether the crits make that fight impossible to face with a cohesive party strategy. The fight was designed to break down party coordination, but with criticals the difficult may have become impossible, at least in the early fighting. In any event, please read my above post, and keep any remaining posts on topic (I realize you were probably composing yours by the time it was posted). Funky
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Post by Stormchaser on Jul 16, 2007 21:52:33 GMT
I would very much like for this thread to go back to being on topic. Suggestions to tweaking Stones of Rebirth, and not how our party played the Asmodeus battle. As a group we long ago decided not to gloat our victory on the forums except for a screen shot in the screen shot thread. I do not like seeing the comments I am seeing here one bit as they are very much detracting from our (at least my) sense of victory and accomplishment by suggesting that we "cheesed" our way to victory with stones of rebirth, and taking advantage of bugs. With every single group that has managed to defeat Asmodeus previous, I have never read where they would have wiped if it wasn't for 'X' bug, or other such comments. It has always been the three cheers for the champs. And here we are now with folks suggesting we won in an underhanded way. No hip hip hoorays for us. Which is fine, I don't need everyone to know we are great players, however the bad press here is something I truly dislike seeing. Such as groo's post. Really groo, did you have to make that comment with this particular discussion going on? My point is that we worked as a great team working our way through a very difficult layer (Nessus) and one is to expect some disorganization being thrown into that final battle cold. I am very proud of our group for our performance over the past few months as we worked each layer defeating malbolga, maladomini, and cania on our first attempts, and then making it to Asmodeus after the hardcore rules were put in place. Ok ... now back on topic I do not favor them being deleted. As my primary toon is an archer, I enjoy that bit of insurance when I am in a positioned far from the battle. If you feel that they are problem, then I would favor limiting them rather then eliminating them
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Post by FunkySwerve on Jul 16, 2007 21:55:49 GMT
But, don't tell me that having a bunch in one's inventory is "exploiting". They're a tool. If you don't like how the tool functions, or how it CAN be used...change the function. The DM staff prefers to script around exploits, rather than forbid something. Thats in the server rules/information. The stones have been there for as long as I can remember. I just find them more *useful* now that crits and demi penalties are both things I need to cope with at the same time. Are they necessary? Of course not. Are they probably supposed to be a neat bonus for low-level non-immortals? Probably. Of all the places I know they can be found, only one is in an immortal area, and only that once per reset. The non-immo area spots actually respawn. Just...don't tell me I'm exploiting by using a tool that the staff created. Y'all put it there. If it need to be changed, change it. But don't bash me for using what the game world provides. Ty's remarks were pretty spot on, in my opinion. The fact that we put it there has nothing to do with whether it's an eploit. Carrying that definition to it's logical conclusion would mean that NOTHING was an exploit. And, in point of fact, they predate all of the current builders, so WE did not put them there. Nor does the fact that we prefer to script around exploits, and that we haven't done so yet, make it not an exploit - it just means that we haven't yet scripted around it, as the problem hasn't been apparent until now. It just means that you won't be punished for it, as seems only right. Put another way, total cheese (to borrow a phrase). Funky
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Post by omino23 on Jul 16, 2007 23:11:22 GMT
I like the idea of having stones of rebirth be a random loot item because it creates a currency in the game that can be traded. I think that there should still be the set drop for them in the immortal only area because I like the process of getting that one. If I have a rare sling that is just collecting dust and someone wants to trade me 5-10 stones for it, I am all over that if I cannot just go out and farm them myself (but I would never trade it for 5-10 bandit splints). The number of times I have been in the desert and popped a bunch of loot that is only useful to me as converted into gold are numerous, adding a few stones of rebirth would at least see these items wind up in the armoire and not the mass seller. I understand the need for "gold fodder" items 100% but to add an item like stones of rebirth would occasionally illicit a "Yessss we got a rebirth stone" until your bank dies. To solve this I might suggest that the stones be activated before they will function and this will make the "mage with the stones tanking" a thing of the past because you will not be able to activate them fast enough.
*modified after I thought about your banker using them all cause he/she keeps getting killed
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Post by cathedralmaster on Jul 16, 2007 23:15:27 GMT
I like the idea of having stones of rebirth be a random loot item because it creates a currency in the game that can be traded. I think that there should still be the set drop for them in the immortal only area because I like the process of getting that one. If I have a rare sling that is just collecting dust and someone wants to trade me 5-10 stones for it, I am all over that if I cannot just go out and farm them myself. The number of times I have been in the desert and popped a bunch of loot that is only useful to me as converted into gold are numerous, adding a few stones of rebirth would at least see these items wind up in the armoire and not the mass seller. The problem with making stones of rebirth random loot is what if your bank is a little squishy?
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Post by omino23 on Jul 16, 2007 23:18:44 GMT
yeah totally agree, I modified my original post
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Post by cathedralmaster on Jul 16, 2007 23:32:53 GMT
Another possibility I would suggest is to add a maximum level to the stones (if that's feasible) or allow them to be used by non-immortals only. If the stones were only meant for relative lowbies, considering all but one drops in non-LL areas, perhaps preventing them from working for anyone beyond level 45 would be the way to go? *waits for T to steal that idea too*
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Post by AndyDeck on Jul 17, 2007 0:00:09 GMT
Another possibility I would suggest is to add a maximum level to the stones (if that's feasible) or allow them to be used by non-immortals only. If the stones were only meant for relative lowbies, considering all but one drops in non-LL areas, perhaps preventing them from working for anyone beyond level 45 would be the way to go? *waits for T to steal that idea too* I'm sorry, which problem are you trying to solve with this suggestion here - the reported cheese in PvP Guild events, or the mage tanking Asmo? If the latter, fine, that'd be one way to 'solve' that problem, but I'd sure hate to see a useful item nerfed this far solely because of its (ab)use in a Guild event - this server is advertised as a Party server, not a Guild server. I'm OK (mostly) with the enormous advantage being given to guilders currently by the scads of BURs being handed out as prizes - they're investing time that I don't have for that reward. But why hurt everyone else's use of this item when it'd be more sensible to restrict the stones solely in the Guild event where they seem to be a problem. And if the problem really is stones in the Hells, there are ample transitions on the way to Hell where the stones could 'break' without restricting or banning them from all immos or all 45+ characters. I apologize in advance if you were arguing the other way here, I'm not trying to put any words in your mouth. I just see these as at least two different problems. I know that Funky already said For Pillars, we will probably give extra points for killing someone using them, as we are considering doing for Greater boots (other option is making them wear out after so many uses). For more general play, I'm undecided. The party that recently beat Asmo was burning them faster than heals, and playing like crap as a result. I watched an unbuffed mage 'tanking' Asmo for about a minute until his stones ran out. When most of them had run out of stones, they started doing a much better job coordinating, and started making progress in defeting him. We'll probably limit them to 1, possibly more, or maybe make them not placeable in containers, or some other fix. They definitely need some thought, though. Funky I'm far more comfortable with a reasonable restriction on the available quantity of stones than with level caps - there's already one low-level healing item that restricts itself to one per character, as an example. Why not have a similar item with a limited number of resurrection charges? This could replace the stones altogether, if necessary. Presuming that the stones are 'meant' for non-immos based on their current drops is reaching a bit though, imho.
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Post by tyranlthixis on Jul 17, 2007 1:39:03 GMT
The four hour run was a combination of a number of factors. Experienced players, favorable random spawn rate, and a combination of classes with the right people playing them. Sometimes things just come together like that. I don't think hardcore would have changed anything especially with crit immunity available to strength tank classes. Having said that the time before that I was working and Sabre and the crew left down one tank (me), hit every random spawn they possibly could, and somehow slugged it out in a less than spectacular time frame.....battered and bruised and exhausted at the end.
The thing is everyone does the run and the boss fight differently. Using the stone ring to trap the boss is a good strategy (very creative the way you did it), but its not one we chose to try on any of our runs. So, the "bug" wasn't exposed by play testing until you tried it. Can you imagine someone like Groo with Bognus waiting behind a wall while others killed the boss? I think not. No shame in winning with it and its a good thing you did since it exposed a defect in the boss. The boss fight has only been attempted 7 time after all, so things like this are going to happen.
Tyran
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Post by drunkenboaster on Jul 17, 2007 1:53:37 GMT
I do like the idea of SoR limited to 1 per person at any time for the following reasons.
1) Guild competitions - Using SoR is just pure cheese. If some sort of restriction is not placed upon these, I can see all players eventually carrying 10-20 just so they can never die in the competition. Nothing hurts a score more than the time spent as a corpse. Beating a tough opponent only to see the rebirth animation instead of the corpse is weak.
2) Feats and Classes - Paladin Guardian Angel, cleric Eternal Return, sorc/wiz Contingency, and bard's Possum's Farce all require class and/or feat investment. Having bags of SoR cheapens these perks.
3) Soloing - The reason I like SoR and want them to remain as set items is for when alone or in small party situations. Lets a little good luck shine when some bad luck happens.
4) Demi God Status - This is also weakened by SoR. If you carry 30 or so SoR at all times you are practically immortal wherever you go any way.
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Post by dodrudon on Jul 17, 2007 2:03:50 GMT
Having SoR drop as rares (or commons) sounds a little bit like Domi's post on the economy and having a currency over in the Random Loot thread.... It could be a good change, however most people don't use SoRs for it to catch on, I think.
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Post by shadow66 on Jul 17, 2007 2:50:08 GMT
Another idea would be just to add to the transition script of the areas you want to limit them in. If someone has too many.. say more than 5... it denies them entry until they drop them to the proper number. Very simple to do.
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